iKNOW Politics: Thank you so much, Minister, for giving us your time. I would like to begin by asking you to talk a bit about your career in politics. How did it begin? What inspired it? Did you face certain obstacles for being a woman?

Nilcéa Freire: I have been in politics since I was very young. I began in college in a student movement and was member of the Communist Party of Brazil. During that time, there was a military dictatorship and the party was clandestine. I was in exile in Mexico (1975-1977) where I continued my studies, but I interrupted them again as soon as I could return to Brazil. From a very early age politics has been a part of my life, parallel to my professional career as a doctor and university professor. After a few years of work, I was selected to be the rector of the State University of Río de Janeiro, UERJ (2000-2003). When my term as rector finished, I moved to the ministry upon the invitation of President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva (2004). My participation in political parties is limited to membership; I have never been a candidate. Since 1989, I have been a member of the Workers’ Party (PT).

I think that all of us women feel a certain isolation based on our decisions — we don’t have anyone to confide in, especially when we are in predominantly masculine environments, which is the situation I have faced since I was a student. My party’s leaders in the student movement were mostly male — only two of us were women. This has happened with both the left and right. This cultural, machista element is in all parties.

In the UERJ where I have worked all of my life, there is a more progressive environment, so these issues do not explicitly appear, but they still have a subtle presence. When I was elected rector, I was chosen by everyone, including men. But when I assumed the rectorship, it was very difficult for my colleagues to know how to treat me in a new position. I had a position higher in the hierarchy than they did, and this fostered great expectations. Later, they adjusted. There is a myth that women are very emotionally unstable, that at any time we could lose our heads. This was what they had imagined, but later they saw that it was different; that I didn’t correspond to the stereotype they had. The most important thing, however, is the fact that we women have a very large overload of work. I have done my entire career with two small children that I had to look after almost entirely alone. I am a woman from Brazilian middle class, so I was able to afford to have domestic worker help me. But even so, it was very difficult to leave small children to do politics and pursue my profession. Many women don’t manage it; they don’t have anyone to take care of their kids or someone to help with domestic chores.

This is an important obstacle because there is also a myth that women don’t like politics. But nobody asks us why we are not as present in politics. Many years ago, a woman union leader was asked, “Why are you not director of the union? You have such good ideas, why haven’t you presented yourself as a candidate for union director?” She responded, “You know what? When my husband leaves the factory and heads toward the union, nobody asks him what he’s going to do. And he has never asked me if just one day during the week I would like him to go home and take care of the kids, to make food, for me to be able to go to the union after leaving the factory. I leave the factory, I go home to take care of the children and make meals. I don’t have time to be a union leader.”

iKNOW Politics: What possibilities do you see to make a real transformation in politics now that you are in an executive position in the ministry for government policies on women?

Nilcéa Freire: It is a unique opportunity to be in positions like this. Women should never forget what it has cost for us to get here. In the Special Secretariat for Policies for Women (SPM), we are working on the reformulation of Brazil’s electoral legislation regarding electoral quotas. In Brazil we have a quota law that requires political parties to reserve at least 30 percent of spaces on lists for women, but there is no sanction if the party fails to reach this 30 percent. If the party says that it doesn’t have enough women to reach the 30 percent, nothing happens. Thus this legislation’s impact is very limited. We are currently discussing the possibility of changing this. In Brazil, voter turnout is nominal, which makes it more difficult to make quotas effective. We have to find a way to make at least 30 percent be effective. Currently, only 10 percent of Congress members are women.

iKNOW Politics: Norms and legal framework are important, but not enough. Structural changes are necessary as well as a change in society’s mentality. In this sense, what strategies is President Lula da Silva’s government developing in this area?

Nilcéa Freire: We are working on different fronts. The first, which to me is extremely important, is the cultural process. More specifically, this takes place in schools, where boys and girls can incorporate a different vision of the world from an early age. We have had a program since 2005 called Gender and Diversity, directed at primary teachers so that they can manage issues like gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation with children. The program is aimed at working with boys and girls from ages nine to eleven or twelve. This is considered a program specialization for teachers, which have increased this year — we now have 14,000 in all of Brazil. We developed the course as “e-learning,” or distance learning. We are interested in impacting formal education because while education can be a tool to modernize society, it can also serve to preserve prejudices and maintain status quo.

Another front we are working on is to support campaigns that organizations from civil society present us. Last year we launched a campaign called “Women in power, I accept this commitment.” This campaign focused on a website where we collected information and analysis on women’s participation in politics. Another tool in the campaign was a political platform that we offered to all candidates for the municipal elections in 2008. This platform was supported not only by the SPM but also the National Council for Women’s Rights (CNDM), a forum of institutions for women from Brazilian political parties that we support. All of the conservative and liberal parties are there. We launched our platform, accompanied by radio ads, posters and slogans, which women candidates used for their campaigns.

Additionally, there are permanent programs and projects in the SPM and government to promote and reinforce women’s autonomy in urban and rural areas. Promoting women’s autonomy often means working on fundamental issues, such as legal documents. When we entered into government, around three or four million of these women did not even have their ID card, the principal form of civil identification. They couldn’t even access the credit programs offered by the government. Promoting autonomy means amplifying work possibilities, access to job markets and also creating the minimum conditions for quality of life.

For all of this, we have held two national conferences on women, one in 2004 and another in 2007. These are participatory processes that begin with municipal conferences, followed by state conferences and then national. In the first, 120,000 women participated and we were able to elect 1,800 delegates from all of Brazil. In the second, in 2007, a total of 220,000 women participated, resulting in 2,800 delegates. The first conference focused on deciding the principles and directors in order to make the first national policy plan for women. In the second conference, this plan was revised, expanded, other contributions were made, etc. We are now in the process of implementing the agreements made in this revision. The plan does not involve just the SPM but all the government ministries in President Lula da Silva’s government: work, education, health, social development, science and technology, etc. All ministries are acting according to the eleven chapters in the plan, which range from inclusive and non-sexist education to women and power.

iKNOW Politics: As someone with extensive experience participating in political parties, what is your vision in relation to women’s participation in parties? What suggestions would you make for this to change or improve?

Nilcéa Freire: Women’s relationship with political parties and formal politics is very delicate. In its beginnings, traditional feminism — which in some aspects lasts even today — strongly questions women’s membership in political parties. For many years in Brazil, women who were members of the feminist movement wanted nothing to do with political parties. The feminist movement identified itself as a sort of libertarian movement; anything that cornered them was rejected. In Brazil there was a clear division between autonomous women from the feminist movement and those who opted to be in political parties. In general, women who returned from exile, who were previously party members, went this route. But there weren’t many and women continued to be the minority in political parties.

The parties, whether left or right, are a mirror of what happens in society. Men are also machista in the parties; it’s difficult for them to open the area up. There is already enormous competition between them, so they don’t want to have to compete with women as well. For this reason, the change depends more on women getting involved. Increasingly more, women understand that they cannot reach positions of power without parties, and this contributes to building a critical base of women within political parties as a principal force for their transformation.

You can see that in many cases, pressure works. This was the case for Michelle Bachelet, for instance. She was not a preferential candidate in her party — on the contrary. The party only accepted her candidacy when society favored her in surveys. It is then that the party says: “This woman has votes, let’s go with her.” We cannot think that the transformations within political parties are going to happen without a fight. We are not going to have results if the situation remains as it stands today: few organized women and many men. Do they not notice us? We have to use pressure. And it is not enough to have pressure from the outside on the party; we have to pressure it from the inside also. My party, the Workers’ Party (PT) was the first party in Brazil to have quotas for women’s participation in the direction, nominations and lists to compete in the party’s direction. Whenever there is an event, there has to be 30 percent women. The fight from the inside is not easy — it’s very difficult. The basic law of physics says that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time. For you to be there, another has to leave; in order for a women to achieve power, a man has to leave it. We are there to fight and the most basic strategy is to be there.

iKNOW Politics: You have worked extensively in training, how do you see the renewal of female political leaders in Brazil? What would you suggest to strengthen this process?

Nilcéa Freire: We have been pleased to see a renewal of leaders in Brazil. A few years ago it was difficult to see a young woman participating in activities of the women’s movement. Now we have a nice movement of young feminists that grows increasingly. They were very important protagonists in the national conference on policies for women in 2007 and they keep growing. They have formed themselves as a network in the whole country; they have representatives in all states. Last year, they held a meeting for young feminists.

On the other hand, the SPM supports the National Student Union (UNE) and within it, the UNE women that strive to have groups of women in all universities. They are doing a campaign to legalize abortion in Brazil. They work on the issue of sexual and reproductive rights. We encourage this kind of participation and political formation because we think there is a lack of governmental and non-governmental areas for training. I am not referring to light training programs, but rather consistent programs that really empower young women. They should know that it isn’t easy, that there are obstacles, but that it is possible to overcome them. I also tell people that I have a seven-month granddaughter and for her to enjoy a more equal world, we have to work. So that women in the future do not have to pay the price for their autonomy, we older women have to pay it ourselves. Many times we have had a very high price to be more independent and autonomous and to be in the places we are.

iKNOW Politics: What importance have networks had in your work?

Nilcéa Freire: Networks are fundamental. At the beginning, I mentioned the sensation of isolation, whether we work in a non-governmental or governmental body or in a political party. Many times you feel lonely, many times you think that you are the only one facing problems because women always think that they are guilty for everything. There is a cultural issue here, related to the idea of the “original sin.” It is very important for you to know that problems are not just yours, nor are they provoked by you. Rather you need to know that these problems are structural in society, that there are other women who suffer the same, that you will find escapes, you don’t have to find them alone, you will find them by sharing with others, and the escapes are not going to be individual. As long as women incorporate themselves into this conversation, a different mentality keeps consolidating itself. For me, networks serve that purpose — to amplify the possibilities that do not often appear individually.

iKNOW Politics: To conclude, as a Minister, what are the three objectives that you would assume for the immediate future and how would you like to be remembered?

Nilcéa Freire: One of my objectives is to consolidate the implementation of the law against violence toward women in Brazil, the “María da Penha” law. This law is an achievement for Brazilian women, endorsed by the president in 2006. Another is to increase women’s participation in politics, to modify the quota law in time for the 2010 elections. And in third place, to consolidate the universality of gender so that a gender perspective may be truly incorporated in state policies in Brazil. And I would add, as a result of these advances, we could have a woman president in Brazil by the end of 2010.

iKNOW Politics: I would like to start by asking about your beginning in politics and for a brief summary of your career. How has being a woman influenced this process?

Elizabeth Salguero: I have a degree in social communications and a masters in regional planning.

I began around 1990, taking on the fight for women’s rights, in particular for women in indigenous communities. I first worked with women’s organizations as a national coordinator in the Fourth World Conference on Women [Beijing 1995]. It was a very fulfilling experience; for the first time women were reflecting together on the issues proposed during the Platform of Action for Women [Beijing]. In Bolivia it was the first time that the work of indigenous, campesina [rural farming] and native women was recognized. The country report was written over a series of encounters and workshops held by the indigenous, campesina and native women’s organizations. There we saw that it would be a challenge to incorporate intercultural respect into our work as well as anti-violence and discrimination.

Afterward I was the national coordinator for the Bolivian women’s organization Articulación de Mujeres por la Equidad e Igualdad [AMUPEI], the body established to follow up the Beijing Conference. We made it a work platform to influence the three state powers — legislative, executive and judicial — in order to implement the World Plan of Action for Women.

Later I returned to work in media companies, with international cooperation agencies and as a consultant in issues related to women. In the year 2005, I was invited to be a deputy candidate for the MAS party [Movement Toward Socialism, party of current president Evo Morales]. For me it was an honor and recognition. It was the challenge that the women’s organizations were looking for, both at a personal and group level. We would no longer try to make an impact from the outside, but rather fight for women’s rights from within the state. I was greatly and pleasantly surprised. It was not a personal achievement, but rather collective one. I entered into national Parliament thanks to the support of women’s movements.

In Parliament, I participated as a member of the International Relations Committee and was later named president of the Bolivian Inter-Parliamentary Union. I have also been vice president of the Socio-Political Commission and am currently president of the Human Rights Commission.

Despite great advances in the area of women’s rights around the world and in my country, I cannot deny that it is still difficult for us women to exercise our rights in day-to-day life. In Bolivia, we have a very advanced legal framework, especially with the New Bolivian Political Constitution (2009). But this is hindered by a machista and patriarchal society. It is difficult for us women to get positions of real power, to be recognized as leaders and to have equal opportunities to enter certain offices of power. For example, during this term, I am the only woman in Parliament to be president of a commission.

The recognition that we have obtained up to now is the consequence of very hard work within these structures with the strong collective support of women.

iKNOW Politics: MAS has won successive elections, most recently earning more than 60 percent of votes. Considering the quick rise of MAS, what role has female political leadership played in this process?

Elizabeth Salguero: Since the beginning, the active and organic participation of the Federación de Mujeres Campesinas de Bolivia Bartolina Sisa has been very important. This Federation is one of the social movements that forms part of MAS and defines itself as a “political instrument” of these movements. The presence of indigenous, campesina and native women has been manifest in various movements. Silvia Lazarte was president of the Constituent Assembly; Leonilda Zurita is part of the national direction of MAS; Nemesia Achacollo and Sabina Orellana are members of Parliament; other indigenous women such as Celina Torrico, Casimira Rodríguez and Celinda Sosa have been ministers. We have had various women in the cabinet. Unfortunately we currently only have two ministers. We hope that with the New Constitution we will advance toward equality. In fact, there are indigenous, campesina and native women in different levels of Evo Morales’ administration, but participation is still low.

This has not recently begun with the MAS party, but it has made a lot of headway. The first indigenous parliamentary deputy was Remedios Loza, a woman from La Paz who used typical indigenous dress and belonged to the Party Conscience party [CONDEPA].

We still have a long way to go, but we have to recognize that despite the patriarchal vision reflected in political parties and different parts of Bolivian society, there are also people who are very supportive and very committed to women’s rights, opening doors for us and supporting us in promoting our causes and accessing positions of power. What happens is that we must sometimes work double or triple the amount of men in order to obtain the same thing.

iKNOW Politics: In your opinion, what are the primary contributions of the New Bolivian Constitution to women and their participation in politics?

Elizabeth Salguero: In first place, the New Political Constitution uses non-sexist language. In second place, women’s rights are mainstreamed into all, absolutely all of the chapters in the New Constitution. There is no “particular regime” of women, but rather the focus is universal in all issues. Regarding women’s participation in politics, article 11 affirms that Bolivia adopts a democratic, participatory, representative and communal form of government, with equal conditions among men and women. For the next elections [December 2009], we have the big challenge of how to guarantee this, as well as article 147 that states that the election of assembly members will guarantee equal participation of men and women.

iKNOW Politics: The feminine blocs in Parliament have had a lot of success in different countries. In Bolivia, there is the Bolivian Union of Parliamentary Women (UMPABOL). What is its role and how is it currently functioning?

Elizabeth Salguero: Well, I would like to be more self-critical on this. It would have been a very interesting space to work on women’s issues with different political parties in order to go beyond our differences and propose joint demands. Unfortunately this has not been possible. The UMPABOL has weakened over time and has not managed to have much of an impact on national Parliament. I believe that there has been a lack of leadership which has inhibited the unity necessary in overcoming our differences and working for the common cause of women. Neither has this space been recognized by women from different political parties. It is important to mention, however, that other areas in civil society have opened — for example, a committee to promote the legislative agenda of women. This committee has systematized all the laws presented by women, has identified the laws being written and currently operates as a coordination body that actively works to ensure these laws’ viability. All of this is based on a solid alliance between women Parliament members and women’s organizations.

iKNOW Politics: What suggestion would you give to youths that are involved or want to get involved in politics, but who see politics as inaccessible?

Elizabeth Salguero: Well I think that there are two sides to it, no? For example, in Bolivia the New Constitution has opened the opportunity for young men and women to become members of Parliament in the new Plurinational Legislative Assembly beginning at age eighteen. It is very important that youths take advantage of this opportunity, identify and strengthen their leadership in order to be candidates and later members of Parliament. But on the other hand, there is also a challenge, not only in Bolivia but in the region, for us feminists that have been in this fight for a long time to pass the torch to young women and to work jointly with them and strengthen their leadership. We have to give room for the new generations and I think that this is a challenge. This is why I always say first the young women and second us.

iKNOW Politics: What role have networks played in your political career? Do you believe that they are important in advancing women’s participation and leadership in politics?

Elizabeth Salguero: Of course, networks are very important. They serve to exchange experiences, strengthen impacts at the regional level and help local struggles to acquire new dimensions. We learn from other women in the network and they strengthen us with their presence and experiences. It is fundamental to have networks where we not only share experiences, but also documents, ideas and projects that are always strengthening our work at the local level.

iKNOW Politics: One last question. How would you like to be remembered? What are the most important achievements that you have made for women’s progress here in Bolivia?

Elizabeth Salguero: I think that the most important thing would be for the achievements made with the New Constitution to be reaffirmed in the joint work of women. It is important to stress and reinforce collective work. Struggles are not only personal; results are the product of collective work. As I said before, recognition of women leadership is fundamental, but everything rests on a collective backing. This is what I would like to leave as the fruit of my work. To overcome what everyone always says — that women are their own worst enemies.

In second place, I would like for strong social control, vigilance and enforceability to be developed in Bolivia by the women’s organizations in civil society. It is not enough for our rights to be recognized by the Constitution, we have to exercise and guarantee them.

Lastly, it is not enough to increase the number of women that access areas of power, we must guarantee the quality of representation. In that, I refer to women being conscientious in areas of gender, not only in relation to women’s rights, but also other groups, such as those with different sexual orientations. Their rights are also articulated in the Constitution, but they must be reinforced and guaranteed. We have seen a lot of women enter into positions of power and then forget about women. This goes back to the idea of enforceability. Women’s organizations must be watchful that these women really represent the rights of others when they arrive to power.

iKNOW Politics: Thank you very much for your time, Orsinia. I’d like to start by asking you to tell us about your career. How did your interest in politics begin, what inspired you? And in particular, how has being a woman and, moreover, an indigenous woman, affected you?

Orsinia Polanco: First, I’d like to send out warm greetings. Thank you very much for this interview. I am proud and honored to represent Colombian women in my country’s Congress. But isn’t easy — it certainly isn’t easy. It is very difficult because I am the first indigenous woman to be elected to Congress in Colombia’s history.

Politics is in my blood. My father was a political man, an orator; an indigenous man that solved conflicts within the indigenous communities. Since I was 13, I have participated in political movements thanks to him; he was the one who got me involved. I always liked politics. When I was 18 years old, I ran as a candidate for councilor in my municipality, Guajira. My mom was against my continuing in politics because it seemed tiring to her. My dad used to bring a lot of people to the house and she would always host them all.

It was my vision and interest that brought me to politics. I saw that my indigenous community had a lot of needs. I saw that we women didn’t have our own, individual voice, so many indigenous women suggested I participate and run for election. Then I ran at the national level.

I have worked at the Guajira Regional Autonomous Corporation as bilingual Secretary of Indigenous Issues in the Guajira department; as a professor at the National University and as an administrator in the Catholic University. In the Javeriana University I have been a professor of indigenous languages and indigenous culture. I have always promoted my culture and the Wayúu language in Colombia and internationally. I have a masters degree in linguistics from the National University. I am filled with pride and satisfaction because I am young and I am a woman and I have had to fight hard.

Women have been shut out of political scenes because machismo is still predominant. A woman is usually at home and when she is an activist, she is the one seeking votes from men and selling empanadas to finance her campaign. At best, a woman is valued as an activist, but not for her intellectual or political ability. A woman is hidden, she isn’t permitted to go out.

iKNOW Politics: What was your candidacy like? What movement or party did you participate in? Were there any problems with you being included in the list?

Orsinia Polanco: I am a member of the Alternative Democratic Pole, the only party in Colombia that allows ethnic communities to participate. Its statute recognizes it as a multiethnic, multicultural party. When I was a masters student as well as a professor at the National University, I realized that the majority of my professors and classmates belonged to the Democratic Pole. I was also drawn by the fact that the party’s current president was previously a member of the Constitutional Court and tenaciously defended the indigenous peoples. The sentences he issued favored the indigenous, preserving their values and customs and respecting their autonomy. It is odd to find people in that category that respect us, indigenous persons. That’s why I joined the Democratic Pole. And when I joined, I was not rejected, at least not explicitly. I did have to compete, however, because there were people who proposed an indigenous man [as candidate] since they thought that as a woman I was not fit to get elected. Then I competed with an indigenous man who had received 17,000 votes four years back and I beat him because we were both asked to present a proposal. The man didn’t even have advertising or a headquarters. I had both a headquarters and advertising. My political platform was very clear: to defend women, children and indigenous peoples. The majority voted in my favor. I won based on my abilities; for being responsible, for being up to date in everything and for being organized. In terms of organization, women outdo men. They thought that I was not prepared, but I came back strong — very strong — and my speech was very well grounded and argued.

iKNOW Politics: You have talked a lot about the support your father, a politically active person, gave you. How did his ancestral culture facilitate or hinder your participation in politics?

Orsinia Polanco: In the Wayúu culture, women represent men in almost all political, social and economic scenarios. This is our history. My father used to tell me that women must go out to the streets because women are sacred and cannot be sacrificed. When we turn 12 years old, considered the age of puberty, we Wayúu women are prepared to be women; to present ourselves in society and to be wives, and also to represent the entire community in different political, social and economic scenarios. This is why the woman is the one that represents the community in general, because she is given this role, this function. In other Colombian indigenous cultures, this does not exist. I am fortunate because I was born in the Wayúu culture, where we have a more matriarchal system in which the woman is the one who gives orders, organizes and represents. Fortunately, I didn’t have problems with my [political] participation in my own community. On the contrary, the indigenous men in my community were happy for me and very proud. They would tell me, ‘you have to be reelected because you have represented us very well.’ At no time have they opposed.

The other indigenous cultures in the country do everything possible to hinder my work, saying that a man must be here. Machismo in Colombia is very strong, both among ‘arijunas’ — non-indigenous persons — and indigenous persons from other cultures.

iKNOW Politics: Could you tell us what principal strategies you’ve used to stay in office and carry out your goals?

Orsinia Polanco: Well, one is tolerance and understanding, which you must have with other colleagues. In the Chamber of Representatives, we women are very few: of 166 members, there are only 13 women, almost nothing. There are times in sessions when there are only two of us women and I am the only indigenous woman. So in order to move forward, we must be tolerant and win allies little by little.

On the other hand, you must prepare yourself well at all times, using your intellectual ability to write legislative bills and later argue them.

However, perhaps the most important thing is to know how to get around the situations at hand that are unique to politics. In this aspect we don’t only deal with bills; we also have to monitor the country’s overall situation. In the case of indigenous communities, we have carried out several strikes to demand our rights. Since the national government has treated us like terrorists, then I have to face this situation because everyone asks me for explanations at the same time, like wasps.

When I recently got elected, I didn’t know how to maneuver political, formal and diplomatic situations. I would present my arguments against a bill and everyone attacked me because they wanted for there to be a consensus. I said no and raised my voice a little, losing control when I talked. I got angry a lot. Now I give explanations to others with a lot of respect and diplomacy. I am more strategic, I have learned a lot. I tell them that the president represents all Colombians and that I am Colombian and the indigenous peoples are also Colombian; they have to understand why I am against a bill. I give them my arguments and they see that I am more prepared. I never talk when I am not prepared. If I do not know the issue, I prefer to stay quiet. And in this way they have come to respect me.

iKNOW Politics: Have you had any particularly unpleasant experience while you’ve been in office, any situation in which you have felt discriminated for being an indigenous woman? What are the principal lessons you have taken from those experiences?

Orsinia Polanco: One of the experiences I most remember, which was very painful, was when they stepped on my manta — my indigenous attire. My indigenous dress is quite long and one day when I arrived, I needed to use the restroom. When I came out of the restroom and ran to vote against a bill, several men got together and stepped on my dress. I couldn’t move. I asked myself, what is this? I was about to report this, I was very upset and I thought it was terrible for them to do this to me. I thought, ‘I am in a democratic country, in a legislative chamber with thinking people’…The time came for the session to begin and I was all alone. There was another woman in the area but she disappeared without saying anything. So I asked myself, ‘Was it because I am a woman? Was it so that I wouldn’t vote? Was it so that I have no allies here? I have to find allies! Then I began to look for them and I have many allies now. I have learned to meet them.

The principal lesson is that after a very strong, well argued debate in which you have been very critical, you must turn back into a super nice, well-loved woman and smile at them. Then you must not show them any susceptibility, sensitivity, or anything. A friend of mine says that the best weapon you can have against your enemy is niceness. You can destroy your enemy’s indifference with a big hug and show your friendliness if you have been offended.

iKNOW Politics: The women’s parliamentary benches have received a lot of acceptance at the regional level and have become an important mechanism in promoting women in politics. What is your opinion on the Colombian Congress Women’s Commission?

Orsinia Polanco: It is excellent that all of us women unite in the Women’s Commission. We have participated in forums, we form part of the Inter-American Parliamentary Group (GPI) and we have shared with women from Costa Rica, Peru, Ecuador and other countries. I think it is excellent for us women because it allows us to talk about both political and nonpolitical issues. I believe that the Women’s Commission should not disappear because it is where we forget about political parties and men’s influence and begin to create very important strategies and proposals for public policies that benefit women.

iKNOW Politics: In your opinion, how has the internal conflict in Colombia affected the participation of women and particularly indigenous women in politics?

Orsinia Polanco: The internal conflict is very unfortunate. It has spilled a lot of blood and many indigenous people have been victims of forced internal displacement. Many women have been obligated to live in cities with their children in their arms and have been driven to poverty and begging. The state has given no support to indigenous persons. We have lost a lot of land, which is why we are currently marching throughout the country since the federal government has failed to fully comply with the return lands that had been snatched from indigenous communities. We have to stand up, organize ourselves and tell the government that we do exist and we need these lands in order to live.

With forced displacement, women have suffered a lot, more so when they are from a community that has unique values and customs. They begin to lose them because they move to the city, which could result in the extinction of their culture.

iKNOW Politics: What do you think of work networks and alliances? Have they been important in your experience in politics?

Orsinia Polanco: I believe they are very important. They help to publicize women’s presence in politics. If a lot of people in Colombia don’t know I exist — moreover as an indigenous woman — then I believe they will know who I am after this interview. And this will reinforce the perspective of indigenous and non-indigenous women, strengthening our participation in politics. Ignorance gives way to mistakes, but if we know each other through networks, then we begin to make connections and have the opportunity to learn a lot more. The knowledge that can be obtained on public policies at the international level is a great help. And that knowledge is the result of working in networks. In this way we can tell others what we are doing and simultaneously better prepare ourselves to participate more efficiently in Congress.

iKNOW Politics: What advice or suggestions would you give young women, especially indigenous women, who are interested in participating in politics?

Orsinia Polanco: In first place, be strong. And in second place, prepare yourselves very well in order to prove that we are very capable and that nothing is impossible in this life. Being a woman is not synonymous with being inferior, and that is a direct message to indigenous women. I know many indigenous women who consider themselves inferior to men and this mentality is unfortunate. We must get fear of men out of our minds. I think that a woman must have a lot of character in order to thrive. It is like saying, ‘I am all that I can be, I am more than you,’ but without saying it, rather by demonstrating through acts. That is what makes you a politician. I didn´t get into politics with money. I got here doing campaigns by foot, making my political proposals known and I ended up getting 29,599 votes.

iKNOW Politics: What are your plans to promote women’s and indigenous women’s participation in politics? How would you like to be remembered? What legacy would you like to leave?

Orsinia Polanco: The first thing in my agenda as an indigenous woman is to ardently defend the rights of indigenous communities, whether they be human rights or their rights to land so that they can subsist through farming. I am also concerned about education and health and other areas where the indigenous communities need to be kept in mind. It is also in my agenda to keep making myself known and to be an example for women not only in Colombia, but also for my personal stories and experiences to reach every corner of the planet.

As for my legacy, more than being reelected I would like to get water for the Wayúu indigenous territory. They live in desert lands where there is no water, not even to drink, and animals die of thirst. We live in a border area and there is water in Venezuela in the Lago Maracaibo and Río Limón. Why don’t we look for a way to bring water through tubes, just as gas is transported from Colombia to Venezuela?

I would like to be remembered as a radical woman, a defender of women and indigenous peoples. I would like to keep moving forward in politics. Who knows, I could even make it to being president. But in order for this to happen I must better prepare myself; complete doctorate studies, go abroad and return in order to keep fighting for women’s rights in Colombia. This country has never had a woman president, why couldn’t it be me? I would like not only to address women’s problems, but also to address other problems in the country. The indigenous are not the only ones who suffer here; the campesino farmers are also displaced. There are people here that live in the city, but they are very poor. There is a lot of inequality in Colombia and I would like there to be a true democracy.

iKNOW Politics: You were elected to the Canadian House of Common for 13 years and you’ve been a Senior Cabinet Minister and Deputy Prime Minister of Canada; what challenges have you faced as a woman in these leadership positions and how did your past experience as a law professor and Dean of the law faculty prepare you to meet these challenges?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Well first of all, let me answer that last question, because while obviously you can stand for political office from any background, I do think it helps if you have a basic understanding of our constitution, our system of governance, the difference between a parliamentary democracy and a republican system of government. They are not different essentially but, to me, I guess it is basic civics. Unfortunately, we don’t teach civics anymore in our schools. So, I just think if you have that legal training, you understand naturally, you feel comfortable with the framework in which laws are made, you understand a great deal more about how laws are made, the process, the importance of language in making laws. At committee, where you have the clerk of the committee and expert witnesses; often the language used is not that familiar to people of certain backgrounds, whereas if you have a legal background, not all, but a lot of that comes a lot more naturally. So I would say that you can be an outstanding member of parliament from virtually any background but having a legal background helps. The first question, challenges: I think, one of the big challenges for women, and I’ve talked a lot about this as I talk to women across the country about why more of them don’t stand for elected office, I think the big challenge is accommodating or trying to make sure you have some kind of balance in your life around work, and if you’re in federal politics in a big country like Canada, the geographic distance is so great, you’re away from home and the parliament is sitting probably 4 days a week; how do you balance that with any kind of normal family life? And especially if you have children and smaller children, we know Statistics Canada tells us women are still the primary caregivers. That’s changing a little bit, men are stepping up to the plate more and more in families but women are still the primary caregivers. Is it possible to make that balance work? I think that’s the question a lot of women ask themselves if they’re running for federal office in a country as large and complex as Canada. So I think that is something we need to talk honestly about with other women, to learn from their experiences, but also we have to talk about those kinds of issues in our families. Too often I think a decision may be made without fully understanding the pressures and the challenges, and all of a sudden you have one member of the family saying: “Hey, this isn’t what I signed on for” and I’ve seen that happen with a number of my female colleagues and its hard. It is hard and I think we just need to be honest about acknowledging that and figuring out how we can make that work at a given time in our lives.

iKNOW Politics: What first inspired or motivated you to go into politics?

Hon. Anne McLellan: It was probably my mother. My mother was an elected municipal official and she ended her political career as a deputy reeve of our county in Nova Scotia where I was brought up. My mother was English, she came to Canada after the war and met my father. She was an only child, I think only children tend to be fairly assertive, and they’re very verbal people and they’re used to being treated like adults from the time they’re born. My mother was very much out there and you get used to being around a powerful, assertive woman; you get used to having people coming to the house to solicit her opinion on issues and look up to her in terms of helping solve their problems. We got our first TV in 1955, I’m revealing how old I am, and it was the first television in our rural village of 450 people in Nova Scotia. And mom and dad would sit us down every night and we would watch the news and we would talk about these issues. It was a political environment in which I was brought up but I suppose when I think about the role model that was most influential and led me to believe that women, if you put your mind to it, can do just about anything in spite of the challenges, that would be my mother.

iKNOW Politics: In your first election campaign, you won by only 11 votes - what advice would you have for other women who are facing very tight elections?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Anything is possible and don’t give up. You know, you work up into the very last moment in terms of knocking on doors, calling people, trying to get people to get out there and vote for you, convincing people that you’re the right candidate for that riding. I was a Liberal running in Alberta, we hadn’t elected Liberals in Alberta in 25 years, since 1968. I went into the election not thinking I would win. My campaign team was largely but not exclusively women, my campaign manager was a woman, the reason I ran in 1993 or worked for the nomination which we got in December of ’92 was because a group of women, with a couple of wonderful men, but largely women, had come to me in the summer of 1992 and said: “we’ve heard you speak about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and we really think you should do this”. I had been involved in the party my whole life, I grew up in a Liberal family in Nova Scotia. As I moved from Nova Scotia to New Brunswick to Alberta, I was involved with the party but more in terms of policy or organization supporting other candidates but this group of people suggested to me that this was something I could do, should do. Anything is possible and if you work hard you never know what the result will be.

iKNOW Politics: As Minister of Justice, you introduced Canada’s first integrated anti-terrorist legislation after the September 11th 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States. You became the first minister for Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. What stereotypes did you have to overcome in this non-traditional role for women and what message do you think your success sends to other women?

Hon. Anne McLellan: I don’t think I had to overcome any stereotypes. I think that by the time I was Minister of Public Safety, people did not doubt that I was strong enough or tough enough to do the job - I had a good sense of all of government. I chaired various standing committees of cabinet. It was my fourth cabinet portfolio and I was also Deputy Prime Minister. I had a good sense of what was required to get people to work together, which is what you have to do when dealing with public safety and public security – you have to get people past turf protection and thinking about how they share information, how we integrate that information, analyze it and get it to people who are in the business of safety and security and law enforcement in a way that that makes a difference. I’m not convinced that there were stereotypes of me as a woman that got in my way. I had already been one of the longest serving Justice Ministers in Canada, and people by then had a pretty firm view of my philosophical approach of justice issues. I’d already reformed the youth justice legislation – which had been a huge fight; we changed our criminal code in regards to organized crime – trying to deal with some of the really tough issues in terms of the globalization of organized crime. I think people knew that I was strong enough or tough enough to do this. If anything, there were probably people in some communities who thought that I was too tough - that I was going too far after 9/11 with that terrorist legislation, it was very controversial. I spent my time in politics doing a lot of very controversial things – I don’t know why, it followed me around – when I was Health Minister, I had to deal with SARS – my time as Minister of Health is sort of defined by SARS. As Justice Minister: the youth justice reform, the anti-terrorism legislation; when I was Minister of Natural Resources: the oil sands, the beginning of the debate between energy development and global warming.

iKNOW Politics: What would you perceive as your greatest accomplishment during your time in government, particularly when it comes to women or young women?

Hon. Anne McLellan: I think my greatest accomplishment is probably just being there, beating all the odds four elections out of five. Also, there was the issue of gun control which was a difficult issue for someone being elected as a Liberal from Alberta, but believing in my gut that gun control was the right thing. That doesn’t mean we got all the details right, it doesn’t mean that we developed the program as efficiently as we should have, but knowing in your gut that gun control is the right thing to do, it makes a safer society, and when you’re talking about safety, you’re often talking about the safety of women and their children. People pretend that, with long-guns, you’re trying to criminalize hunters and in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. As we know in rural Canada, women die from long-guns used by partners, husbands, whoever against them. I think there are times and issues where you have to stand up and say: “I know there is a political cost to this, but I believe that this is the right thing and we stay the course”.

iKNOW Politics: You were chair of the Liberal Party’s renewal task force on women, and you held meetings across the country with women. What did you learn from this process?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Actually, the meetings became less partisan over time. They started out being meetings of Liberal women but ethnic women wanted to come, aboriginal women, equal voice, the Edmonton YWCA initiative, one woman one vote – they actually started to involve larger groups of women that weren’t necessarily Liberals. I guess the thing I learned was that there are very clear reasons why more women are not seeking elected office. There are three main reasons but the number one reason, what we talked about earlier, is what we call work/life balance. It is very hard for women to see a line of sight between their responsibilities as a mother and wife or partner, and being away from home four days a week, 30 weeks a year for an extended period of time. That’s the number one reason women do not stand for elected office.

The other two reasons are interesting too: the culture of politics, women don’t like what they see as the overly-aggressive partisan approach to politics – they don’t like the language that’s used – that it’s a sport, a fight, actually we use a lot of military language in politics – we talk about campaigns, we talk about the fight – we talk about opponents, we talk about defeat or victory. That’s language that I suppose is generic, but it’s also the language of war and I think a lot of women feel uncomfortable with some of the language that’s used. I thought our former premier actually encapsulated unintentionally the reason women find the culture of politics so difficult. When asked about politics, he said, upon his retirement: “You know, politics is a blood sport, it’s a man’s game”. You know all that language that just puts women off.

Then, the third reason that was identified by the young women’s forum was that they don’t like the way the media depict women – they really paid attention to what happened to Belinda Stronach when she crossed the floor – and how the media described that event and how the discussion of the event was less about the merits of floor crossing but more about Belinda as a person. I think the way the media treat women in politics is also something that really puts women off.

iKNOW Politics: Do you think that networking with other women, particularly women’s caucuses or an international network like iKNOW Politics, has helped you in your career?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Certainly networking with women is important, and that is one of the things I talk about when I go out and talk about why we don’t have more women in politics. I think mentoring is important, role models are important, networking is important. You can have formal and informal networking – or formal and informal mentorship programs in places of work and in politics. If you’re going to do it well with quantifiable outcomes, you need some kind of formal program of mentoring. I am convinced, the more I talk to women of all ages that mentoring is important – that they need people who have been there, who have lived through this, who have lived through the ups and the downs, the bad and the good to help them understand what its all about.

iKNOW Politics: How do you see ways that women can work with men in order to encourage more women to run for politics and to be more effective in politics?

Hon. Anne McLellan: I’ve always worked reasonably well with men, in part because when I went to law school in 1971 that was the first year any significant number of women went to law school. During my early career I was working in areas that were primarily male. When I went to law school from ’71-’74, it was the beginning of women in law schools in larger numbers. Then when I started law teaching I was the first tenure-tracked professor at the University of New Brunswick Law School. I was the only woman, they had one sessional before I showed up, but I was their first tenure track female professor. I would go to law society meetings in New Brunswick to represent the law school, I would be the only women in the room because the hierarchy in the law society was still all male because there were so few women.

That changed, through the 1980s you started to see more women in law school, more and more women as lawyers and judges. Then, when I became Minister of Natural Resources, I started going back to rooms of all men because there weren’t many women in the oil and gas business, in the mining industry, the forestry industry. I kept going on this roller coaster ride. Women and men, we roughly represent 50% of the population and we have to get along. We have to figure out how we make our world a better place, how we have safe and secure communities where we prosper, how we make sure the division of labor at home is such that both men and women can be productive members of society. Men still have the majority of positions of power and influence whether its in business, whether it is in law firms, whether it is in politics, universities. It makes no sense for us to automatically assume they’re the enemy and are out to get us. What we need to do is make sure we find ways to work with our male counterparts because their objective is the same as ours in most cases. Its not that they’re venal people, its not that they want to do harm. They want happy, functional families and communities just like women do, in most cases. I think it’s a case of figuring out how we work together. The one thing I will say though is that if you have power, you usually don’t give it up willingly. That’s one thing women need to understand, that men still have a disproportionate amount of power and influence and they’re not just going to hand it to us. That doesn’t mean that we end up in warfare with them but it means that we have to step forward. If we want to be the managing partner of a law firm, then don’t expect to be asked to do that because guys like being managing partners of law firms or they like being Prime Minister of Canada or Cabinet Minister. We are going to have to prove ourselves in the sense of standing for office, working hard, being successful and meritorious and then when the time is right, putting our hands up and saying ‘You know what, I can do that job, I can do that job as well or better than x,y, and z, so I would like you to consider me’.

iKNOW Politics: If you had to give one piece of advice to a young woman who is considering politics and doesn’t necessarily know how to proceed, what would the advice be?

Hon. Anne McLellan: I guess, talk to people like myself and other women who have been there. If you’re not sure whether this is something that you want to do or you’re working through whether you think you have the right disposition to do this, I think it’s important to talk to people who’ve done it. Now, you never know until you’re there – I’ve learned a lot about myself in the 13 years I was in public life, both good and bad – I think understanding more in terms of what the real expectations are. One of the things that I think it is maybe harder for women to cope with out of concern for their family and kids is that once you decide to stand for office, especially at the federal level, the word that’s key there is public. You give up a huge amount of personal privacy and your family gives up personal privacy. And for women, that can be a real disincentive to get involved because they know their kids can end up being the center of attention, be it at school or wherever, in a way that they don’t want and don’t think is fair for their kids. People need to understand, it is putting yourself out there and people will write things that you think are unfair or untrue, they will be mean-spirited at times and cruel and everybody gets to read it. It will be on the front page of the newspaper. If you don’t think you can be comfortable with that or you don’t want that for your family, then I think you do need to work through that because you have to accept the fact that you’re giving up a big chunk of your zone of personal privacy. There’s a level of intrusion on the part of your constituents. You can’t go to the store and buy groceries anymore in a way that you’re use to because that becomes a public space where you’re not anonymous, where people know who you are and they have every right to come up and talk to you and engage you and say ‘Hey you’re my Member of Parliament and I just want you to know x,y, or z’. If you’re not comfortable having that intrusion and giving up that aspect of your private personal space, then I think it can be very hard and very stressful and it takes getting used to. I sm by disposition, a very private person, I don’t like to talk about myself; you get used to talking about yourself after awhile. I never talked about my family because my family made it plain that politics is something I do, it is not something they do. They will become very angry and resentful if they end up being included in the public space, because that’s not their space. People need to be realistic about what this is about and then if you’re successful at it, then it is more of the same. You give up more of that zone of privacy and if you’re a Cabinet Minister then you give up more again and if you’re a high-profile Cabinet Minister, you give up more again. You have to think these things through and until you’ve done it, you never really know what it is all about. I think it is important for people to talk to others who’ve been there. Talk to people who are honest about it, both the good and the bad because there are both. At the end of the day I had a blessed political career. Who knew as a Liberal from Alberta I would win 4 out of 5 elections, I’d end my career as Deputy Prime Minister, I’d hold amazing Cabinet positions dealing with some of the biggest issues our country confronted at that period of time? I wouldn’t give that up for anything but people need to be realistic, you’ve got to be hard-headed about it in the sense that there are costs that come with all of that.

iKNOW Politics: You are currently a member of parliament in Botswana and you’ve also been in politics for many years at different levels. Could you tell us a little bit about the challenges that you’ve faced as a woman in these positions?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : As a woman it’s difficult to stand for elections because to begin with, politics is very expensive. One needs resources and it is difficult for women to fundraise mainly because of the perceptions that leadership positions are for men. Another problem are the cultural beliefs and attitudes that it’s only men that should lead. So when you go to people and ask for support, even financial support, they are rather reluctant as compared to when it’s a man doing that. The third challenge is the multi-roles of women. When you are a woman you are a mother, you are a wife, you are a nurse, you are a social worker. In other words, after the campaigns you have to go back home and make sure the family is taken care of. In the morning you have to make sure that the husband is taken care of, that all food had been prepared for them, and these multi-roles sort of interfere with a woman’s campaign. If you are standing against a man he doesn’t worry about anything except just campaigns, so these are some of the challenges that women face. And especially the cultural one, that women are not meant to lead, it should just be men. Irrespective of whether you are educated or not. People would rather vote for a man who is less educated than your. So as a woman you have to put much more effort than you would if you were a man.

iKNOW Politics: : How did your background as a business person and a teacher prepare you for being in politics?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : When you are a business person you meet a lot of people, you market your company. And the marketing skills that I was using for my business are the ones that I am using as a politician. Secondly, the kinds of associations and the people that I met as a business person, are the people that I go to for resources, they are the people that I go to for support. And I even go to the extent of going to them to ask them to ask their workers to support me, so being a business person also is an advantage. The other advantage that I had was as an educator. I had been in the teaching field for close to twenty years, both as a secondary school teacher and a teacher trainer. That helps me because I am known when I go to people’s homes—I’ve taught their mother, I’ve taught their daughter or something like that, so that also has helped me.

iKNOW Politics: : What was it that motivated you to run initially for local council and then what was your motivation to run for parliament once you had been a local councilor?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : Well, as someone who believes in helping other people, if you are a councilor, the role is actually to help your neighbor. I felt that I could contribute more if I were a councilor because as a Christian, my grandmother brought me up to show that you really have faith when you demonstrate it by helping other people. As a local councilor I did that and this is what encouraged me. But then after I had been in the council I felt that my education qualifications, my experience were too high for one to operate at the local level because it is a lower level. So I felt that perhaps I should stand for parliament, which would be more challenging.

iKNOW Politics: : What is the situation right now in Botswana for women in parliament? Is it improving, is it getting worse?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : Well, unfortunately the numbers of women in parliament is going down. To begin with, parliament is a dirty game so most women would not really want to stand for parliament. The tricks that men use to win elections are not the kind of tricks that women would use so most women would not want to be in politics. Secondly, I’ve mentioned the problems that women face and you also have a situation where even though women in Botswana are in the majority of political party memberships, but they would rather vote for a man than for a woman so that in itself discourages most women to stand for elections or for positions.

iKNOW Politics: : In your opinion, what do you think women candidates should be aware of when they’re running for public office and what would you recommend to women who have limited resources, financial or otherwise, when they’re running for office?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : I think as a woman you should be principled and your campaign should be issue-based. When men campaign, their campaign is not issue-based, but we always say to women, “we must talk about issues,” the things that affect people—poverty, education, rape, violence against women—those are the issues that affect people on a regular basis. And then in terms of fundraising, I would say women should fundraise starting at the local level, looking at the community, people they already know, see who can assist them in that respect before they move on. Because there are associations that women can join at the local level that could assist them in fundraising. Also, one way of reducing expenses is to have people working with you because some of them would actually volunteer their services rather than expecting to be paid.

iKNOW Politics: : Can you name a policy change that you made while you were Deputy Minister of Education that resonated for women and that continues to benefit women.

Moggie Mbaakanyi: As you know, education in Botswana is free from primary to university so the government of Botswana was sponsoring a lot of students in foreign countries. During my time we introduced a system where privately owned teaching institutions could be established in Botswana and students would be sponsored by government through those institutions. In that way it meant that the money that we were sending out of the country was being used locally. We also introduced some aspects of the curriculum for entrepreneurship. We introduced also a program called Know About Business so that when children graduate they should really know what business is all about. As you know, the informal sector is made up of women and if those children graduate they are likely to go and help their parents, even when they are still going to school. After school, they help their mothers in the informal business so this is something that I’m very proud of.

iKNOW Politics: : What is your leadership style? Has it changed in any way during the course of your experiences?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: Well I think it has changed in that as a politician you interact more with people and people of different classes and at different levels so the leadership style that you use is different. If I’m a teacher obviously I will be focusing on the students that I am teaching and the teachers that are working under me, but when you are a politician your leadership style must change according the people and according to the situation one is in.

iKNOW Politics: : You were one of five ministers in the cabinet. Why do you think it’s important to have women in ministerial positions and in those senior positions? What kind of perspective do you think women can bring to those kinds of positions?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : It is important to have women in leadership positions whether it’s ministerial or cabinet because to begin with they are role models. They are role models to the younger girls so girls will aspire also to be leaders. Secondly when you have women as leaders you are actually demonstrating democracy because democracy means sharing of power between male and female. There can never be democracy when there is only one side that are leading. Thirdly, women are the best leaders because they start from the family. The woman manages the household and by managing the household they get management skills so even when they are in leadership positions they actually use those skills that they are using in the family. So I think when you have a woman in a leadership position, they’ll look at issues and aspects that men may never even think of. Once you have a woman in a leadership position she is a mother to the nation so everybody will come to her for different reasons. Men, after hours they sort of knock off whereas women never knock off from work. Even as a minister, when I get home there will be families coming to see me, there will be parents coming to see me, there will be children coming to see me, there will be students coming to see me, there will be people from the church coming to see me, so these are the multi-roles of a woman. And on the positive side there are good attributes when one is in a leadership position.

iKNOW Politics: : How has the support of other women helped you over the years in your political career?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : It has really helped me in that they are the ones who also supported me. If I have functions they are the ones who will volunteer to come and do that. If I have campaigns they are the ones who will be in the campaign teams. Or if they are not able to do that they will still come in and help. So helping other women, you are not only helping those women but helping their families. Because in Botswana you not only have male headed families, but female headed families and they are in the majority so once you are working with women you are actually working with the whole nation. I would like to see a situation where the support for women includes training of how women can fundraise. How they can find the resources, because in the majority of cases women are not able to run for positions because they don’t have the resources. But I think if some training could be targeted toward that it would also help. And I must just take this opportunity to thank organizations like yours and other organizations for the support they have given the women.

iKNOW Politics: : If you were to leave one piece of advice for women who are just entering their political careers, what would that advice be?

Moggie Mbaakanyi: : My advice would be live today as if it is the last day of your life. In other words, whatever you can do today you should do it. Don’t postpone it for tomorrow because you never know how tomorrow will be like. And every time when you are in a situation, be positive and be confident and the rest will follow.

iKNOW Politics: You entered politics from a field that is a little bit different, you started in the church. You were the first African woman ordained in the United Church in Africa and then you entered politics. Now you’re a Member of parliament and vice chair of the women’s caucus. Can you tell us how your background in the church helped you as a member of parliament?

Sampa Violet Bredt: I must say it was very interesting for me to come from a church background where I was ordained as the first woman minister in the United Church of Zambia and the first ever ordained woman clergy in Africa. I had a lot of challenges, first of all, to enter the church ministry because at that time it was unheard of for a young woman to be accepted for ordination, but I did go through a lot of difficulty and I overcame these things. I served my church faithfully at different levels for five years. I rose to the highest church rank one could ever think of, I served on the central control of the World Council of Churches for seven years, I was for ten years the undersecretary of the Council of Churches in Zambia. After I retired from my church assignment I thought I should go home and rest and maybe be with my family because in those days I was hardly at home and I regretted that my children never saw much of me. But again I thought, “The boys have grown up, what should I do at home?” The community both in the church and in society were demanding that I should go back into active work. Either in politics they were suggesting, or in the church as a volunteer. I was already doing volunteer work.

iKNOW Politics: What motivated you to go into politics?

Sampa Violet Bredt: Within my locality, I saw that I could actually move into the political arena and do certain things and that’s how I adopted an interest to go into politics, but I didn’t know exactly which party I wanted to join. After deep considerations and observations of what was going on in Zambia I felt one of the political parties and its manifesto appealed to me very much and this is the Patriotic Front. They were talking of social issues and they wanted the transformation of the poor Zambian people and I said, “This is more or less the work I have been doing in the church, maybe I could try it out from the political point of view.” That’s how I joined politics and it was quite interesting.

The difficulty was the entry point to win an election where I had very little experience in how to convince voters. There were a number of men who were contesting in that constituency which I was assigned to. We were eight of us, but fortunately I got the highest vote. And I found myself in parliament at the end of 2006. That’s how I got into politics. And I have found it extremely interesting to be a member of parliament because you are learning so many things. Unlike in the church where I was more focused on the churchly things and I was only touching or transforming the community. But here you are hearing about a number of issues from across the country from different people—what they do across Zambia and beyond Zambia, so I have found it very nice. But as a woman also in parliament I sometimes get very perplexed. When I hear many debates it’s business for them, it’s for me a little bit far removed from touching the people, feeling the people. It’s like you are debating, but not really close to the people on whose behalf you are talking. This is sometimes the difficulty that I face with what goes on in parliament, but we are with Zambian women parliamentarians, both from the rural area and the town setting, we try to make a difference because we see that we are mothers. How can we transform the problems of our children and our sisters from the legislative point of view? And of course being a minority, it is oftentimes not easy. But the voice does get heard. It’s a slow process, knowing very well that our parliament is male dominated and is very much patriarchal. So sometimes when gender issues come in, males tend to not take it so seriously, but I’m enjoying my work and I hope I can make a difference especially to the women of my constituents—the young women, the struggling mothers, and the community at large.

iKNOW Politics: How would you define your leadership style? Has your style changed now that you’re a member of parliament?

Sampa Violet Bredt: I think for me it’s probably too soon to say I dramatically changed. I am still the same Violet who wants to engage people in whatever I do. I don’t see myself really as a leader, but I see myself as a facilitator. Perhaps this is not appreciated by many people who want me to be the leader, but I want to carry along with me the people in whatever I am doing and to achieve results is probably not very easily visible. However, I am ready to learn new skills which politicians do. I think I am still very much in the church way of doing things.

iKNOW Politics: You’re the vice chair of the women’s caucus. Do you think that having a women’s caucus and having other women around to support you helps you in your political career?

Sampa Violet Bredt: Oh, it is very fantastic. Especially in the women’s caucus, we have a chairperson who is very experienced. I always look to these women who have been in parliament before and who have been helpful, who want to carry the new ones along with them and I think it is from them that I am learning a lot of things—especially those who are very positive and want to make a change. Who have vowed that they have gone into politics not because they want to be like men, like I went into the ministry of the church not to just go an be like the clergy but to go and be a woman minister and understand the church as a woman and not as a man So I am learning from those other women in the caucus who are trying to make a change in parliament.

iKNOW Politics: What advice would you give to a woman who’s just thinking about starting out in politics?

Sampa Violet Bredt: I think never to give up and to be strong and to be focused. To really know what one wants to achieve in life because oftentimes we tend to be discouraged as women, but I urge all the women who want to venture into politics to be very strong, to be truthful, open and to be women of credibility. We need to make a difference from men politicians.

iKNOW Politics: And how do you see a global online network like iKNOW Politics able to benefit women?

Sampa Violet Bredt: I think that too is an advantage because it becomes an eye opener to know what other women in other continents are doing. I believe that women are women no matter where they are and if there are womenfolk either in Europe or America or Australia who have advanced in certain fields we must be open to network with them so that we can exchange information and be in solidarity with each other. That’s how I see this women’s network working.

iKNOW Politics: How did your career in politics begin? What challenges did you face as a woman political leader, especially being the first vice president of the Dominican Republic? How has your previous training and experience helped you?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: Very early on, my family took a stand against the dictatorship of Rafael Leónidas Trujillo (1930-1961). It was really very difficult. At that time, my family was united in combat and was persecuted. So it was natural for my parents and grandparents to include us in that struggle for democracy and equality because in that era of tyranny, the most important thing was to achieve freedom. I think that my spirit was formed through the family.

You could often find the opponents of the dictatorship organizing themselves in the living room of my house. A large number of Dominicans participated in the fight for democracy from these clandestine groups. A woman could be certain that she was taking the same risks as her fellow companions, which was perhaps both a privilege and a misfortune. As a result, there was a certain ease in recognizing oneself as a human being capable of fighting and combating together against the other. The origin of my involvement in politics was the fight against the dictatorship — the passion for freedom and democracy and later the aura or halo that this fight gives, such as recognition from certain social sectors.

I went through what all young people of that era went through: prison, exile, deportation. But as soon as the time was right, I took up the political life on the side that was the most important for me — the struggle for democracy. My involvement in public life began in the year 1961 and at 20 years of age, I might have been the only woman that participated in the revision of the constitutional project in 1963. Professor Juan Bosch, who headed the Dominican Revolutionary Party (PRD), had a large influence on me.

I have had the honor of being a senator for two terms (1994-1998 and 1998-2002), as well as vice president and secretary of education (2000-2004). I have also been involved and contributed to reforms that fill me with much satisfaction. One that I can mention is the reform of the Dominican justice system, which was something I fought for. Today, we have the satisfaction of having a groundbreaking justice system in Latin America. I also contributed to the reform and modernization of Congress. A particularly important event, which could be useful for iKNOW Politics, took place in 1997. Though I earned a large number of votes, I was the only woman senator. Back then there was a good number of pending reforms in the country to benefit women and we managed to go forward with some of them, such as the Law Against Inter-Family Violence, the General Education Law with a gender perspective, the first Women’s Quota Law, the creation of the Secretary for Women, and others.

I further collaborated in prompting the creation of a mechanism to organize women from political parties and civil society, such as the Honorable Commission of Women, which was very important for the Senate.

iKNOW Politics: What was the role that women’s organizations and women politicians played in the post-dictatorship Dominican Republic in facilitating and giving other women access to decision-making positions?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: I think that Dominican society stagnated and that women, at best, felt too satisfied with what we had achieved. There was also an electoral reform that created the preferential vote, which annulled the triumphs that women had gotten through laws.

I think it is important to highlight here that one thing is the law and another is social mobilization. As long as women do not stick together in their votes; as long as men do not feel that women’s votes can impact their access to power; until women manage to not do what society persuades and for our vote to be just regarding social and gender politics, and for women to be trained in social and economic affairs in order to lead change processes in society; as long as we vote based on personal interests and don’t vote together, in an associate sense as women, it is very improbable that the laws will benefit us.

Furthermore, a law is not a change in culture. There is still a need to modify the culture and the political parties. Women must promote new legal reforms and generate political movements that use them. After the movement of 1997, which is the time that I have been referencing, Dominican society became conservative. We have limited achievements such as 6% of women in the Senate, 19% in the Chamber of Deputies, 11% in the municipal governments, and 26 or 27% in the town councils. If one were to observe these percentages, he or she would realize how the numbers decrease as the importance of the public office increases. These are some of the difficulties in this historic struggle for power.

I always say in conferences or events where I have the opportunity to talk to men and women — because men also need to be talked to on the issue that women are not the only ones bound by the problem of gender and discrimination.

The following is an example that I always make in university lectures: if I were to break one of the bones in my arm and was in a cast for a long time, the day that they remove the cast I will not yet be able to move it as I do the other arm that was never hurt. The power of women has been in a cast for thousands of years. It is not a problem of women, but rather of society. For women to acquire the role that they must acquire is a problem of public health, it is a problem of production and of the real struggle against poverty. Notice that the most progressive governments or those that maintain a progressive group of voters are those that take more steps in advancing toward equality. The opposite would be an attempt to maintain the problem of slavery during a time of democracy. The problem of inequality is not just a problem for women, but a problem for the world and the community. Equality between men and women is essential for the world to reach the highest levels of human development and wellbeing.

iKNOW Politics: As you have already mentioned, laws are not enough. Structural reforms are needed to accompany them. From your perspective, what principal strategies do you think must be put into practice in order to achieve real gender equality at all levels of Dominican society?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: If I were to take the DNA of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero [current president of Spain] or that of Ricardo Lagos [former president of Chile, 2000-2006], I would find a passion for democracy and a sense of justice. They have the certainty that their role is to achieve a world of equal wellbeing. There is no formula; if there is no political will to do it, there is no commitment to that reality.

Education is essential. Women have a role to educate the new generations, especially on equality. Women cannot repeat the pattern of the past 20 years, particularly of being in the household. Today the world is not as it used to be.

iKNOW Politics: The importance of solidarity among women is often highlighted. For example, in iKNOW Politics’ E-Discussion on gender quotas as a way to promote women in politics (June 4-11, 2008), one of the participants from Sudan mentioned that the lack of solidarity among Sudanese women broke what could have been a strong women’s political movement. What has your experience been on this issue and what lessons have you learned?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: I have not been a beneficiary of solidarity among women, but I am committed to this solidarity. I have not been a feminist leader. I have been a leader who believes in equality, and who believes in the obligation to achieve full freedom in exercising the human rights of each individual. Therefore, I have an obligation to women and my party had a policy in that regard that I followed with pleasure. Due to my own solidarity, I have never withdrawn from a campaign so that society doesn’t say women withdraw from campaigns.

Although many women could have negotiated their votes [for political favors], there was always a small group among those who refrained. I have never expected solidarity from women though I have given them the opportunity to be supportive. But I do have the honor of having always been very supportive of the cause and very committed to equality. I am continuing to defend, advance and explain the concept of equality, and I am seeking reasons and foundations to keep it progressing.

There is a serious problem that I would like to mention here, which is the patronage system. This system is the most terrible weapon against women and that women practice. Women feel that in order to access power they have to have someone to help them through using the patronage system. However, those who help women, diminish their roles. In each era of human evolution extraordinary things happen that can change the course of things. The patronage system and poverty are two disastrous instruments against women because women become chained by them. Intelligent programs against poverty are necessary. But it is the creation of employment and opportunities, the vision of human development, the ability to choose, that will decide the path women take regarding their own equality. I am both a victim and a beneficiary of different times that I lived through.

iKNOW Politics: You are a woman of a political party. How did you manage to shape your leadership and become a candidate? What do you think of women’s groups in political parties and what would you propose to increase women’s participation in party’s decision-making?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: I have always earned positions through internal elections. I was never recommended for an office. Even the vice presidency was decided based on my votes. Political parties in Latin America have gone through different stages. With the presence of Dr. José Francisco Peña Gómez in our party, we had a progressive man, a man close to Lagos, and close to people who go beyond modern barriers.

In the political party crisis, given the lack of ideology and the predominance of total pragmatism of power for power, I think that women’s development process, such as in politics, has been decreasing. I cannot say that Dominican society has become more conservative, but will say that the parties are part of this society. Each contribution that I made was not due to my efforts alone but with the women in my party, with the deputies of my party and all the other parties. If we hadn’t created a force, we would not have been able to develop further. The Dominican Revolutionary Party (PRD) had quotas even before the quota law was adopted. These quotas were passed through an internal party regulation.

iKNOW Politics: Though there is a clearly unequal distribution of power, it is true that women need the support of men in order to achieve equality. Based on your experience, what are the best strategies of including men in processes that favor the advancement of gender equality, specifically in the area of political participation?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: Strategies without a plan, without a project or without an ideology do not go anywhere. First, it is important to clearly understand why one wants to be part of power and one should know what is needed in order to get it. In the candidacies for senate, I had to compete against the strongest men in my party. I had been directing the party bases in my district for a long time, and the advances were extraordinary.

We women regionalized the party member registry and enforced accountability. We involved ourselves with the social base. Then, the party hierarchy could not avoid the majority from expressing itself and there was a presence — a movement much more advanced in our party’s political base. I had never taken part in the patronage system, which hadn’t advanced as it did later as a result of excessive pragmatism, which has become politics in the Dominican Republic since 1996. For that, I won the senate elections twice; the second time I won with 63% of votes.

What recommendation would I give? Strategy is knowing that democracy is constituted in the majority. The majority is not made through talking about only one issue, but rather representing and interpreting society as a whole and dedicating yourself to those who need more of our care in order to grow. Choosing points of alliance is fundamental. Afterward, preparing in order to speak on any issue, knowing about economicsy and history is important as well. Men reduce women through any means. I remember in my party when I made an acceptable commentary, a male fellow party member behind said, “The green-eyed woman that talked first,” in order to highlight that I was woman.

This can be overcome by being a hard worker, training yourself, studying and being representative. If you do not represent, then you have nothing to look for, you will always be the object of a negotiation. I think that, fundamentally, it is necessary to teach women strategies. If they add, you should too. If they divide, you should too. If they make allies, you should too. If they get close to people, you should too. If they have money in order to do something, you have to conceive a plan in order to do the same with new methods, be creative.

For example, modern mechanisms to carry campaigns forward are there, but the costs are impeding women from accessing this opportunity. In these issues we must also keep fighting — for example, in how to distribute the funds of political parties that receive state funding without discriminating against women, because this is the aspect of parties that most hinders their participation.

iKNOW Politics: You have been and still are involved in training women political leaders. Several specialists indicate that now is a time when young people feel disenchanted or skeptical — if not downright cynical — of politics. What do you think about this? How do you see the process of forming new political leaders in your country?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: The adolescence that I experienced is not the same as that of today. Youths do not have the same interests. Now, young people have the problem of drug addiction, sexual freedom and the decadence of our societies. Today, women go out to work early in the morning and the grandmothers, like me, are not at home taking care of the grandchildren. The government has not thought of a new way to organize society. Who takes care of the children of mothers that work in the duty-free zone or banks? Who has realized that the family has suffered very important changes and that the government has to somehow revise this situation so that youth can begin to pursue more logical goals of development and growth and can build their own vision of this world?

On the other hand, the State does not even understand that women are half of the world or that youth is half of all the worlds. Political parties lack what we demand most such as ethics, transparency, results, representation and fulfillment of promises. So if the State is the sum of all that a country aspires and the country elects someone to direct it, and the people discover all these flaws, what is the inspiration? I think that the economic crisis we are experiencing will sink the Bretton Woods agreements for good and as a result, will have to arrive at a new international agreement.

In this process, it is very possible to find a space to understand new people — youths — and the role of women. It isn’t possible to change one foot’s shoe to one color and the other foot’s shoe to another color. As the beautiful song of Mercedes Sosa goes, “he who doesn’t change everything, changes nothing.”

The extraordinary advances in health, in research, stem cells, DNA, technology, etc., require a change in society’s perspectives. Those that stay at the margin do so because they do not have a global sense of what is happening in the world. This is the time to think about women and young people because it is the only way to defeat poverty at its roots. For people who have been poor for 70 years, it is very difficult to get involved in production, development and growth. But to concede the opportunity or task to create to young people and women who are coming forward is to change the world.

Politics is the art of conquering power. Whoever is in power can raise your taxes or university tuition, change school curriculum and your street address, alternate how to orient yourself — by telling you whether you should go from south to north or north to south. Politics gets into sports, it invades everything. When one isolates oneself from politics, this space — since there are no empty spaces — is filled by negative politics. One has to be in politics because politics is the foundation of the State’s organization.

Young women have to be in politics. To isolate oneself from politics is like refusing to breathe, because politics is like air. You and I are sitting here for political reasons. Because you believe that I can tell you something interesting and you are working for an interesting idea, and it is political — both of us are. Then everyone who believes that the world can be better, can make it a better place if he or she does politics. This is my message, that is my life and — I must also add — it gives satisfaction. If politics leads from an ideology and a way of acting, it gives infinite happiness. This can be found from the smile of a woman who tells you, I went and complained because my husband was hitting me, to being able to say, there is a social security law that gives me health.

I know it’s tough for women, but it is much more beautiful when you choose to do it.

iKNOW Politics: What kind of influence have networks and working in networks had on your work? Do you think they are useful? In this context, what is your opinion on iKNOW Politics?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: A few years ago I was called by a group of organizations to be part of a panel on political parties. I believe that the political party crisis is due to a failure to adapt to technology. Parties must function in networks; interests must be linked by a network.

I believe in technology, in the facilities that the world of today gives us in order to, for example, converse with so many people that we don’t know, or for them to enter my blog or webpage. So it is clear to me that this is a modern way for us to communicate. I believe that the power to get close to each other and converse is very valuable. There are already various networks of women and I think that the iKNOW Politics project is fundamental.

iKNOW Politics: And as a closing comment, could you tell us if you have any future agenda for the issues we’ve been discussing?

Milagros Ortiz de Bosch: I am organizing my own conferences, either written or virtually. The issues are related to political parties. I also participate in a citizen education program because my impression is that the problems we have in Latin America, particularly in political parties, are due to a lack of active citizenship. I dedicate myself to this with much affection. As part of this program, I collaborate with a radio program in one of the most prominent stations in the country, which has an extraordinary audience. There we explain how to be a community, how to organize yourselves in order to solve a problem, as well as larger, more conceptual issues. We teach people what laws are and how they are created and mainly how to empower themselves as citizens.

I am frequently invited to speak at conferences, to converse with people on these issues, and at some point I will have to deal with some party matters. For now, I am taking a break, waiting to see how this goes, and organizing my life a little bit. I have worked and fought so much that there are many parts of my life that are in little pieces and I suddenly feel that I must stop to put it together like a jigsaw puzzle. Put pieces together and rethink things, because I have talked to you about my successes. We almost always forget the things in which we have failed.