iKNOW Politics: Thank you for granting us this interview.  Tell us about Amssatou Sow Sidibé, what is your background? How did you enter politics? 

Amssatou Sow Sidibé: Amssatou is a Senegalese woman, an aggregate qualified professor and Chair of the Private Law Department. I am Director of the Institute of Human Rights and Peace at the University of Cheick Anta Diop. I have been engaged in academia for more than 30 years and trained entire generations, with more than 4000 young people graduating each year destined for high-level executive positions in the country. 

Amssatou is a Senegalese woman who has worked extensively in the field, in particular as President of the African Network for the Promotion of African Women Workers (RAFET), which operates in more than 40 localities in Senegal and various other African countries. Amssatou has worked hard for women's rights. I originated the first draft legislation on violence against women, since one of the studies I conducted with women parliamentarians in Senegal was used by the Ministry of Justice as the basis for drafting the law. The idea of a law on parity was born in my office. 

Amssatou is a woman who did much to shape the law on health and reproduction. 

Amssatou is a woman who has advanced many reforms on behalf of women in Senegal. Amssatou has supported children by creating "SOS right to education" and by helping Senegalese students avoid what would otherwise have been a lost academic year. Amssatou initiated the first national conference, bringing together in an amphitheatre the party in power, the opposition and civil society to reflect on the country's political situation. During this conference, Amssatou called on students to return to their classes. 

iKNOW Politics: At what point did you decide to enter politics? What triggered your decision? 

Amssatou Sow Sidibé: The only trigger was the general situation of the country. Senegal is suffering a great sickness. The ship is taking on water on all sides, and men and women alike must use all of their strength to keep it from capsizing.   All Senegalese people, of every political persuasion, suffer when legal instruments are rigged and institutions are undermined. What we have seen in recent decades obliges us to dedicate ourselves to serving the Senegalese people. If we fail to act we become complicit. For all of these reasons we have created a citizens movement, because the people, who have not been respected, should have the last word. This movement has captured the interest of many Senegalese people, who for decades have observed that we are not evolving normally and that our rights have steadily eroded. It is because the Senegalese people aspire to break away from the status quo that we have created the Convergence of Actors in Defence of Republican Values "CAR Lenen". 

The aim is to break out of the chaos and the cronyism, reverse the deterioration of our values, overcome our failure to compete and stop treating our citizens like children. We need a national surge forward, placing people at the centre of our concerns. 

iKNOW Politics: Since your arrival on the political scene, what have been the major challenges you have had to face? 

Amssatou Sow Sidibé: I have found great support in Senegal and among the diaspora. People are saying that with a woman in the race, a mother sensitive to the problems of the Senegalese people, they can finally feel hope. They say here is a woman who has proven her qualifications. I have many male supporters, female supporters and young supporters. The great challenge, and something that has always been an impediment for women in politics, relates to resources. The limited representation of women in decision-making positions is partly attributable to the limited resources available to women politicians. Personally, I was able to overcome a number of other challenges, such as keeping up a household. As a committed woman, I have always been supported by my husband and family – the problem has to do with resources. To improve representation for women, affirmative measures are needed for the financing of women candidates. The change must consist of more than a speech. Concrete measures are needed in support of women.  

iKNOW Politics: you said that the idea of a law on parity was born in your office. One year now after its adoption, what can be said about its application? 

Amssatou Sow Sidibé: Women talk about parity everywhere, even in the bush. They bring parity to the leadership and they demand parity. I think it has already been very successful. Several women have considered my candidacy entirely normal, which would not have been the case in earlier times. They say they have always supported men and now that parity has been adopted they often support women. Women know that if a woman is elected their concerns will be better taken into account – a woman who assumes power having been a mother, with boys and girls, and who could never discriminate against either gender. 

iKNOW Politics: What do you think about an initiative like iKNOW Politics, using new technologies to promote women in politics? 

Amssatou Sow Sidibé: iKNOW Politics is an excellent political instrument for promoting women to leadership positions, as a matter of human rights and development. How can a country be developed if more than half of its population is marginalized? Nor should we ignore women as a human resource, whose value must be maximized. True parity requires frank policies. In Senegal, since independence, we have had three male presidents and the country has not developed. The time has come to try a woman. Women can manage everything and can deal with several things at once. Let's give a chance to qualified women who can bring about the changes so long anticipated. 

iKNOW Politics: What do you call upon women to do? 

Amssatou Sow Sidibé: I ask women to support my candidature. I have proven myself. I have a decade of experience and I invite women to rally around my campaign to bring change at last to Senegal.

iKNOW Politics: What were the challenges you faced as a woman political leader?

Honourable Celestine: While in office I worked on food self-sufficiency and income-generating activities. I gave women doing agricultural work small loans so they could increase their harvests. I also worked to improve the truly awful working conditions of women nut oil producers. First the women boiled the nuts, then they lowered their bodies into the liquid to knead it. This took every ounce of physical strength they had, which is, after all, limited. Their output was therefore low and they sold what little they produced. Those who bought the oil took advantage of the low prices and resold it for more money on the market. To put an end to this ordeal, I gave the women an oil press, which allowed them to increase their production and their income. The oil press had an immediate impact on productivity, profits rose sharply.

iKNOW Politics: Did you introduce any laws in favour of women during your term in office?

Honourable Celestine: I tabled a bill on violence against women. It wasn’t easy to obtain the signatures of the male colleagues I needed to present the text. They prefer to speak of gender-based violence, because they feel that men are also victims of violence. So we changed the wording to gender-based violence. We have several laws to explain, we’re thinking about the law on the right of women to have control of their own bodies, the law on HIV/AIDS, the law on sexual harassment, among others. Today in Benin, the schools are emptying of their girl pupils, parents are afraid to send their daughters to school because they’re harassed on all sides, by the teachers, the village elders and young boys. 

iKNOW Politics: In your constituency, did support from women play a big role?

Honourable Celestine: I was elected in a commune of five constituencies of 400,000 inhabitants, and thanks to the loans and donations I made I had many women partisans. But at the last minute a man came along and handed out banknotes and managed to win them over. This happened because our women have daily needs to meet, so they are always tempted to accept a banknote to solve their problems rather than to vote for promises that won’t be kept for months or years. They cannot think in the long term, what interests them is today. Moreover, I think that men are very good at pulling the wool over our eyes. Populism is a problem everywhere in Africa, extreme poverty plays in favour of vote-buying, and it’s very hard to fight this. This is why we have to focus on educating young girls, to broaden their minds and allow them to project into the future.

iKNOW Politics: Some women are reluctant to get involved in politics because they think their family life will suffer. What do you think? Why does it seem so hard to reconcile family life and politics?

Honourable Celestine: I think that from the outset there has to be a relationship of trust between husband and wife that makes it easier for the man to give the woman more freedom. Trust within the couple is very important and implies a degree of responsibility on the part of the woman. Her first duty is to make sure her household is run properly. Getting involved in politics is a choice, it’s a decision the woman makes, and she must not allow it to take over to the detriment of her other responsibilities. Women have to be well organized, to manage their time well so that they can be wife, mother and active woman politician all rolled into one. Those who are not prepared for this should not get involved or they should be prepared to break up their homes.

iKNOW Politics: What advice would you give young women who want to get involved in politics? 

Honourable Celestine: I ask them to have the courage to face the world of politics. They have to show a sense of responsibility to be able to perform their duties, and to be able to put up with a lot. That’s what politics is, first and foremost, it’s not a walk in the park. You have to be mentally prepared to face all kinds of difficulties. You’ll be called all kinds of names, accused of all manner of things. It’s not a world you can enter without being prepared. I’m convinced that being involved in politics implies a certain personal culture. You can’t be the kind of woman who’s at a loss for words, you have to stand up for yourself and learn to take what comes your way. Getting involved in politics is not as simple as going to a party or a dinner dance, it’s more complex than that!  

iKNOW Politics: Let’s start by talking about your career in politics.  When did it start, what inspired you and what obstacles have you encountered as a woman?

Pauline Sukhai: My political career began when I was 11 years old.  I was inspired by the grave injustice faced at that time in my country by the opposition party, which is the party I belong to. Once while I was traveling, I saw a member of the People’s Progressive Party [PPP] being harassed and brutalized by the State Apparatus – the police – and I vowed to myself at a very early age that I would work to do something to correct that. When I was about twelve years old, I joined the Progressive Youth Organization and later the Women’s Progressive Organization [WPO], which is a widespread women’s organization in my country.  At that point, there was no turning back. Later on, I started participating in the People’s Progressive Party.

Since then, I have held many different positions. Having started out as an ordinary member at the group at community level, I’ve progressed to become a member of the Central Committee.  Today I’m also a member of my party’s Executive Committee. I have held various positions in government – I was Parliamentary Secretary for three years in Indigenous Affairs, I was also Parliamentary Secretary for the Ministry of Tourism and today I am the Minister of Amerindian Affairs [since 2008]. I’ve been a Parliamentarian for 18 years now – December 2010 marks 18 years since I first became a Member of Parliament. So it has been a very interesting and challenging career.  Personally, the difficulties that come with the territory didn’t affect me that much, but I understand the wider implication of women’s involvement in politics since they carry more responsibilities.  I think that women in politics here in Guyana have been able to overcome some of that due to their determination and commitment.

I wouldn’t say I’ve had obstacles.  I think it has been challenging as a woman who comes from a very small village in the rural community and who has no secondary education, much less a university education. I’ve had to work even harder, both in the political and academic realm. I’ve also had to balance that and family.  I married at a very young age – 21 years – and had two children. But at the political level, I didn’t think there were many obstacles in my party since we’ve always pursued a more equitable representation of women in the party’s policies and decision-making – before as the opposition and even now as we are in the driver’s seat.  Our leaders and the rest of us at the top have always pushed to ensure that women were included in the party’s upper echelons and even in the government.  And the results are tangible because we have achieved more than 33 percent women in Parliament. At the cabinet level I think we are at about 34 percent.  Even the party list has to be one-third women, which was the quota that the former president, Dr. Cheddi Jagan [1992-1997] – who passed away – ensured be kept.

iKNOW Politics: You’re a party woman – a woman who has developed a career within the party. How open are the party systems in Guyana for women and women candidates?

Pauline Sukhai: I can speak for the People’s Progressive Party, which has always been open and welcoming to women. In fact, we have one of the largest women’s political organizations in the country, which is allied with my party.  That alone speaks volumes on women’s admission to the party because as long as you are in the women’s organization or the political organization (the WPO), you automatically move straight into the party ranks. And since we hold elections for the positions in the Party Central Committee, the process is followed from the group level. However, cultural sentiment in Guyana still strongly opposes women being engaged at the highest level. Family ties can even impede that, which is rooted in culture and tradition.

iKNOW Politics: What are three goals that you plan to implement in your ministry in order to advance indigenous women’s involvement in politics?  What strategies will you use to achieve these goals?

Pauline Sukhai: At the political level, my role is more related to broad-based development and with development comes politics. But the mechanisms and strategies we use to implement programs in my ministry include women because we are more open.  We cannot drive the political aspect from the ministry – that’s the party’s job. But in the national programs that we carry out, such as the community development plans and the livelihood program, women are encouraged to participate at the village level. This involvement is sowed not so much by our design, but also due to the villages’ economic situation.  Women are sometimes more permanent figures in the villages while their male counterparts go seek employment in other sectors.  In a very rural or remote community, women are sometimes the ones who stay behind. So if you are talking about the livelihood program or community development plans, they’re the main drivers, formulators and designers.

iKNOW Politics: Alliances and networking are very important in politics. iKNOW Politics is also a network of networks. What role has alliances and networks played in your political career?

Pauline Sukhai: They have played a very important role. We have a very unique situation in my party. For example, in 1992 even though we had determined we’d win the majority vote in elections by running alone, we created an alliance with the Civic.  Therefore our party is now the People’s Progressive Party-Civic since we have a civic partnership in our political framework that works along with us, the politicians. And they have competed with us, alongside us, in partnership with us in elections. Next year there will be elections here [August 2011] and the debate on whether to broaden the partnership to include civil society and religious organizations is already an ongoing topic.

iKNOW Politics: What is the role of young women in politics in Guyana? Are there any movements currently under way that call for the renewal of leadership in the country?

Pauline Sukhai: It’s not as desirable.  I have been examining this factor for a while now and I’ve seen that many of the women today who have better opportunities and greater access to secondary and university education are spending much more time in the academic arena. During my generation, women spent a lot of time in the political arena because some of us did not have the opportunity to spend that much time in academics nor could we have afforded to spend it on educating ourselves. So our main activity revolved around politics, even at the ground or the grass roots level working in the communities. So I think it’s taking awhile but with more women being educated, I’m sure that the number of high-caliber and quality women to assume leadership in the near future is not going to be reduced.  I think the quality of women who enter into politics will increase very soon.

iKNOW Politics: What kind of suggestions would you like to give young women in politics or young women who are interested in politics but who believe it is a very hard scenario to be in?

Pauline Sukhai: Well, one of the first things I would say to young women, is that life is short.  Whatever career path you want to pursue will be hard and if it’s politics, it will be a very interesting and challenging field. As a woman, politics only requires you to be determined and for you to want to challenge existing norms and practices for the development of your people. When that seeps into your system, I think it becomes the driving force for any woman who is involved in politics, particularly young people.  They understand that their contribution toward building their country and ensuring democracy for their people requires their input and that it should not be viewed as a profession that is “hard.” Any profession is hard. It is what you make it.

iKNOW Politics:  How did your career in politics begin, what inspired you to get involved?  Also what obstacles did you encounter as a woman?

 Gloria Young: I first got involved in politics in Mexico while I studied at the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM).  In a decade like the 70s, there was no way to avoid it.  And, of course, if you study Political Science and Public Policy, you join forces with the left.  So my first party experience was with the groups linked to the Fourth International in Mexico.  Later, I returned to Panama, where a groundbreaking political movement was under way – very interesting – which was started by a group of people close to Ruben Blades, our salsa singer.  In its name, the group captured the essence of what we wanted to be: Papa Egoro (1991), which in an indigenous language means mother earth.  So we placed ecological concerns at the top of the list.

Within Papa Egoro, we formed a national women’s secretariat that ended up becoming a party within a party.  We were very well organized and had a lot of energy because we had some of the most renowned feminists of the time.  I joined because I didn’t believe in traditional politics.  Ruben Blades told me, “do in the party what you would do at home.”  This stuck with me and I wondered, “what would I do at home?”  To which I answered, “everything necessary to advance the struggle for equality.” So we created the National Women’s Secretariat of Mother Earth.

When national elections approached, the idea of participating as a candidate had never crossed my mind. I wanted to work directly with women at the national level and strengthen the National Women’s Secretariat.  But the rest of the women had reached an agreement, met with me and said, “we want you to be a candidate for Parliament.”  I told them that I didn’t believe in those things – in formal, electoral politics.  They were full of lies.  Also, you needed a lot of money to get elected.  Finally, they convinced me with the argument that someone from the women’s movement had to participate.  We ran and we won in one of the most important electoral districts in the country (1994).

In Panama, there are three ways of getting elected: by majority vote, ratio or “remainder.”  During these elections, 69 legislators were elected, seven winning by ratio.  I entered Parliament with a well defined agenda: a domestic violence law, equal opportunity law, sexual harassment law, a law on the elimination and eradication of sexist language in school books and texts at the national level in addition to the texts of the legislative assembly agendas.

This agenda was considered extremely audacious.  Despite that, we achieved Law No. 4 on Equal Opportunity for Women in 1999.  With this agenda, we managed to join forces with various sectors in the women’s movement.  Contrary to what one would imagine based on other experiences, in Panama the movements were not ahead of Parliament in this agenda.  Rather it was the women Members of Parliament who took initiative, including other women who did not necessarily have a gender perspective.  The men in Parliament also became more sensitive to gender issues, to the point that our sessions started with a special greeting: “good afternoon, women legislators.”  One day we’ll have to write about that experience.  I was re-elected for a second term.  I’ve been in Parliament for a total of ten years [1994-2004].

I remember clearly when the winner of the Rogelio Sinán award – one of our most avant-garde writers – was a woman: Elsie Alvarado de Ricord, a wonderful poet who at the time was president of the Panamanian Language Academy.  Like other prizes related to the arts, this prize was the result of our work in Parliament.  We had created a totally different dynamic in the assembly.  For the first time, the assembly in Panama published a magazine – Ventanas del Parlamento – which had been advocated by the commission on women’s affairs.  The magazine discussed the advances in the women’s movement in the country, various aspects of the academic movement, essays, background articles, etc.

In the commission, we started the custom – which was unfortunately abandoned – of consulting all initiatives with the sectors of organized women in the country.  This sort of dynamic was unprecedented because even though the assembly’s permanent work commissions are obligated to consult bills with the sectors concerned, the majority of discussions were held within closed door.  The commission on women’s affairs set the tone for what needed to be done.  Moreover, we managed for this participation to reach the assembly itself and women’s voices were heard nationally because the sessions were aired on TV and the radio.  The radio especially made an impact.  You’d get into a cab and you’d end up talking to the driver about these women who are talking about such and such because everyone heard us on the radio.  I’d walk down the city streets and they’d stop me to say, “Hey, legislator, I heard they took miss so-and-so [to the assembly] and look what interesting things she had to say!” 

iKNOW Politics:  Could you comment on the obstacles you’ve faced in your political career, in particular with your male colleagues?

Gloria Young:Undoubtedly they were many, beginning with life inside the party.  Being in a party is a constant struggle to make your voice heard in a place dominated by males.  There have been several women party presidents.  The first was Berta Torrijos de Arosemena, honorary president of the Democratic Revolutionary Party (PRD), founded by her brother, General Omar Torrijos.  She took it seriously and began to make significant changes in the PRD until they changed her instead.  The second woman president, elected by vote, was Mireya Moscoso of the Arnulfista party, who later got elected as president of the country.  I’ve been president of the Papa Egoro party, chosen internally over Ruben Blades.  As president, I had to muddle through the reconstruction and expansion of the party at the national level against all odds and with no support from the party’s founder.  I became aware of all that went with being the woman president in a party where a patriarchal system reigned, despite the fact that the women’s secretariat was as strong as ever. However, we managed to include an indigenous representative in the directive board in a country that has five indigenous districts with their own lands and government.

In the end, a movement was started by Ruben Blades to kick me out of the party and take my seat.  He didn’t manage to do get my seat, but they did expel me from the party.  And I am proud of it!

iKNOW Politics:  Could you tell us about your experience in training and empowerment processes for women?  What lessons have you learned and what difficulties have you encountered?

Gloria Young:There is no better way to add to your political worth than through training and constant capacity-building, especially for women.  Men are more willing to take on political challenges without training.  For women, it’s much more difficult to take this step or to find the courage.  So you have to encourage them.  It’s not enough to say, “be brave, be brave,” you have to explain and provide reasons.  You have to acquire tools and know how to use them, even if we’re defeated time and again.  In the Papa Egoro secretariat on women’s affairs we had a special unit for training – you can’t imagine all the things we did there.  Later, with Mireya Moscoso’s party – which is older and more traditional – we also garnered support for women’s training and the formation of a national women’s secretariat.

This wasn’t enough, however.  We formed a strategic alliance between women from different political parties, called the Forum of Women in Political Parties.  A certain spirit of unity was created between women politicians, regardless of ideology or party affiliation.  We managed to modify the electoral law so that 10 percent of the 30 percent electoral subsidies received by parties went exclusively to training for women.

iKNOW Politics:  In Panama, you not only have the Forum but also the Panamanian Association of Women Parliamentarians and Former Parliamentarians (APARLEXPA).  You’ve been the executive secretary for both groups at different times.  What do you owe these advances in Panama to?  What could we do to promote similar initiatives in the region?

Gloria Young: Indeed, I’ve been the founder of both groups.  To date, the Forum has been around for 16 years and the Association for six years.  They are spaces where Panamanian women politicians can work together and have served to increase women’s personal self-esteem and political standing in parties.  The Forum has a very strong training component – so strong that it has earned international recognition from organizations that finance extensive training programs for women candidates.  We have taken this experience to other countries in Central America and the Caribbean.  Five of us women from different parties have gone to other countries, which really helped motivate women in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and the Dominican Republic.

For its part, the Association is an experience that began in El Salvador under the initiative of a great colleague, who I identify with a lot – Gloria Salguero.  She has been a minister without portfolio in Elías Antonio Saca’s government [2004-2009] and was formerly the first woman president of Congress.  Without a doubt, she’s had a very successful career in Congress.  In contrast to the Forum, the Association is for women who have been elected to the Parliament and are thus good examples of what it means to win elections in each country.  The Association exists to train women who want to participate in elections, whether national or local.  We have been formulating a methodology with a basic academic component as well as a focus on managing basic tools.  We have helped many women to overcome shyness, find resources and have the courage to face men in their parties.  These women have begun to win elections and that’s why support from women who have already gone through elections or held office is so key.  The point is to have them share their experiences with women who are just starting out and help spread accumulated political capital to those who now need it.

iKNOW Politics:  What role have networks played in your political career?  What benefits do they entail?

Gloria Young: I firmly believe in networking.  One of the components of our training sessions is how to dominate information and communication technology (ICT).  Women, including those from the country’s more rural areas, have to learn how to use and manage ICT if they want to communicate their proposals.

iKNOW Politics has been a fundamental tool for the women in APARLEXPA and the Forum, as well as for all women who have dreams and aspire to educate themselves more.  Most of all, the spaces for virtual debate have been very helpful.  I don’t know if you are aware of how much iKNOW Politics helps women politicians.  Networks need to be expanded to reach much more women because the number of women who currently access these is minimal.

iKNOW Politics: What is your future agenda in order to continue the valuable work you’ve done to date?

Gloria Young: I plan on promoting a change in APARLEXPA’s board of directors.  This is very important now, following the elections [2009] where our number of deputies in the national assembly fell.  The idea is for the position of the president of the Association to be held by one of the two women who got reelected this term.  The woman who got the greatest number of votes in the country will be at the helm, supported by very valuable women deputies and former deputies.  I will become an advisor for this directive board.

My main goal at this time is to be the first national director of the National Institute for Women, created by law in December 2008.  This institute’s structure is completely different than other national institutes.  In fact, the executive branch alone doesn’t appoint the director, rather it must choose from a short list resulting from an open, extensive and democratic competition between women who must meet certain qualifications.  These qualifications include experience in women’s development and gender equality and demonstrated professional ability.  If you also have experience  with the social and political movements in the country, even better.  The short list is chosen through a mechanism created in 1994 – the National Women’s Council – which is a neutral space between government and civil society organizations, presided by the country’s minister of social development.  There are seven civil society organizations that are presenting candidates, five of whom have supported me.  I am very proud of that.

iKNOW Politics: I would like to begin by asking you about your career in politics. When did you start and what motivated you to get involved? What opportunities or obstacles have you encountered as a woman?

Carmen Beramendi:  I became politically active at a very early age when I was still a student. As a result, I was in prison for seven years during the Uruguayan dictatorship. I later participated in the union movement. I was not only the secretary of my union, but also president of the fishing industry workers organisation in Uruguay. I was also a member of a political party, and was elected deputy from 1990-1995 by the Broad Front coalition [Frente Amplio]. There were twenty deputies at that time who were government appointments, but I was the only woman. Thought there were also women in other political parties, there were only six women parliamentarians.

I have encountered obstacles ever since I became a party member. Back then, I didn’t attribute it to gender discrimination because I hadn’t adopted that perspective yet. I remember when I joined a movement of very clandestine political activism, a man said that he couldn’t talk about secret matters in front of women because women couldn’t keep secrets. When they held debates that had to be kept quiet, he refused to let women participate. I had been chosen to form part of that mobilisation committee with many more votes than he had; however, he reserved for himself the right to veto my presence. Being seventeen years old, I was perplexed and didn’t understand at all. That was when I realised how tough it would be participating in politics, even having votes. I emphasise having votes because I think that votes contribute to legitimacy in politics.

In the union, if elections were done individually, the number of votes in my favour would have skyrocketed. But if elections were done based on lists made in a small political circle, I would be relegated to second place. When voting was done name by name, women received many more votes. This is what happened to me in the fishing union: I won by a margin of thousands of votes over the person who came in second place. This is how I became president of the fishing union for many years – I received majority of votes from the workers

With time, I started to understand that men’s way of associating themselves with power structures is different than women’s, and that men’s exercise of power is deemed more legitimised. Much less is placed on the table when it comes time to evaluate a man’s political conduct and much more is considered when it comes time to evaluate a woman’s political conduct.

Over time, men have developed many ways to guarantee their permanence in politics; they know how to establish alliances, while we women have a difficult time establishing alliances between us. Perhaps it is the result of gender influence that leads us to “affectivise” [make personal] our ties, relationships. Men are able to form alliances even though they argue, fight and confront each other. They don’t affectivise their relationships like women do. If we get angry, it is very difficult for us to form an alliance with the people we get angry with. The way men are socially constructed allows them to disassociate their feelings from their decisions and this gives them an advantage in the political sphere, which is very competitive; this is very uncommon among women.

My being elected to Parliament is due to my political activism in university and in the union. The party that I belonged to greatly favoured workers. Being a union leader gave me important credibility that – when added to my university education – gave me comparative advantages to reach decision-making offices. Even my imprisonment turned out to be very valuable for the left-wing here in Uruguay.

Leadership is developed over long periods of time in the lives of all human beings, not just women. I believe that we women have trouble in this aspect; we have a very difficult time developing leadership and helping develop other women’s leadership.

iKNOW Politics: How much has women’s access to the public sphere changed in Uruguay? What has been the role of women and women’s organisations in this process?

Carmen Beramendi: At the beginning of President Tabaré Vásquez’s administration (March 1, 2005 to March 1, 2010), four out of thirteen of his ministers were women. This was unprecedented in the country, more so because he placed women ministers in positions that were usually not given to us, such as the Public Health or Development. He even appointed a woman Defence Minister, and later designated a woman as Home Secretary.

This had a double effect. First, we women had a much greater presence in the public sphere. Second, holding these kinds of offices largely helped prove that women can effectively hold these positions in society. However, this is not reflected in Parliament, where women only occupy just over 10 percent of the seats.

In order to revert this situation, we have promoted the so-called “empowerment triad.” This consists of uniting women in public bodies (in my case, the body that governs gender policies), women in political parties, and women in social movements. This trio – an initiative from civil society – held meetings such as the Uruguayan Women’s Meeting. In addition, the trio held several assemblies where women from different backgrounds met in order to reflect and commit to a common agenda, including the promotion of women’s participation in politics. In efforts to separate this initiative from political party logic, we have formed a network of women politicians in Uruguay and the feminine bicameral caucus with women members from all political parties.

From a democratic perspective, we have a significant deficit due to the scant political representation of women in our country, most of all in the “plain and simple” [puro y duro] level of politics: political parties. What we experienced with the debate on the quota law (2009) testifies to Uruguay’s backwardness in this area. This is contradictory, given that in Uruguay we have double the number of women university graduates in comparison to men, and we were one of the only countries that first had universal suffrage, a divorce law allowing for divorce based on a woman’s initiative, and a series of other issues regarding gender equality. However, we are completely behind in terms of political participation. There is no direct relationship between the advancement in women’s rights and political participation in our country. Today we have public policies that I consider to be quite important regarding gender equality, such as the law on equal opportunity and rights and a plan for equality that is in the making. The plan for equality includes a policy of mainstreaming equality in all government sectors – which is particularly emphasised in five bodies – and policies in public companies and advances in the national budget. However, equality is still very difficult in the political realm; there is no correspondence between the political advancements in equality of opportunity and rights and political representation.

iKNOW Politics: Why such a gap?

Carmen Beramendi: I believe that this is because the core of political parties is still the toughest established power in our country, and this power is profoundly patriarchal. This is demonstrated when electoral lists are made; these lists are created based on patriarchal criteria. Only during the last campaign did the issue of equal participation in lists surface. In the Broad Front’s internal elections, one of the candidates – the one I am with – suggested it. He even announced that, in the event he was elected, he would have an gender equal cabinet. This was the first time for this to occur, which I think is a result of the strong fight that women’s social and political movements have carried out over the years.

One curious thing is the quota law, makes quotas obligatory for internal elections – beginning with the next elections – but not for general elections. The arguments for this have been absurd, in particular the assertion that there are no qualified women, as if men were naturally qualified without having become so through practice. By exercising representation and power, one learns. On the other hand, it is evident that the most capable people are not currently in Parliament; there is a series of circumstances that allows these people to get to this sphere. This is an issue that we must forcefully address.

iKNOW Politics: How do you view the process of developing and creating new leaderships? What is the role of political parties in this process?

Carmen Beramendi: I don’t think there is a process of creating new leaderships, but what we do just barely have is the presence of some innovative candidacies. In Uruguay, we women who have set precedents are over 50 years old – the well-known leaders for the population are adult women. There are very few young women participating in political offices. A lot is said about creating new leadership because it sits well and is politically correct, but when it comes time to look at which candidates could actually be president, the average age is between 60 and 70 years. And I think that parties have even blocked the possibility for new leaderships to appear.

iKNOW Politics: As director of the institute that governs the country’s gender policies, what strategies are being employed in order to promote equal access to political representation for women? What goals do you expect to achieve?

Carmen Beramendi: Our Plan for Equal Opportunities and Rights clearly aims for equality. We have promoted some meetings, areas for reflection and discussion seminars on this topic. Additionally, we have supported initiatives from civil society that have similar aims. When the debate on political parties law took place, we asked parties to give their opinions on this law, but saw little success. The institute is recognised when it comes to policies implemented from the executive branch, but there is little receptiveness when it comes from other government powers. For this reason, in 2008, we advocated regional assemblies of women that ended up drawing over 4,000 women in order for them to adopt the plan. We made the 2009 electoral year an issue in the assemblies, encouraging women to closely follow the process of creating lists and to get involved. We sought to motivate women to not only vote for more women, but to vote for women who are committed to women’s rights.

iKNOW Politics: You have been the Uruguayan representative in the Specialised Meeting on Women (REM). Could you explain to us what REM is and what its impact has been in the region?

Carmen Beramendi: REM is a specialised area for women within the Southern Common Market (MERCOSUR) whose objective is to influence policy within the institution. For instance, at the time of instating a MERCOSUR parliament, we made a recommendation calling for an equal number of men and women in future parliaments. Additionally, at the presidential summit we presented a resolution from all women ministers in the region, which was then adopted in Chile during President Michelle Bachelet’s administration. Perhaps the most important achievement has been the resolution of the Tenth Conference of the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC), the “Quito Consensus” (2007) which was the first instrument to propose equality of men and women in decision-making areas, the redistribution of assignments within the division of labour, and the recognition of women’s unpaid work. It was a great achievement that linked two agendas: that of unpaid work or the sexual division of domestic work, and that of access to participating in power structures. Both agendas are associated with the distribution of power in the public and private sphere. It was a wise move by ECLAC’s Gender Affairs department to join these two issues. In MERCOSUR, we have worked toward spreading this approach and we now have a regional project for this. We will be able to work more as a region, joining different movements to promote women’s participation in politics.

iKNOW Politics: Certainly the change in regulations is only one part of what is needed to achieve equality. What structural changes would you propose to narrow the gap in inequality?

Carmen Beramendi: I think that Uruguay will have to have a much more intense constitutional debate and carry out an in-depth constitutional reform. This is the only way that women’s political rights will be truly recognised and in force.

The lack of political participation by women marks an important democratic deficit. All structures that make democracy more effective are also structures that can contribute to increasing women’s participation, though this is not automatic. At least this is a lesson from my own personal experience: the more democratic the structure, the more women that are elected. There are people who will tell you that the current system allows for women to be candidates, but this is not true, because candidacies are indubitably “cooked up” among a reduced group of people – mostly men. Adding to this, there are economic requirements key to maintaining a candidacy, and if the resources are controlled by the party’s leaders, these leaders will be the ones to decide who will be candidate. Thus it seems to me that political party reform is important and should include methods to ensure gender parity. The law should require equal participation among men and women.

I believe that we were shy in Uruguay. I am very critical of the quota law, however today I defend it because they want to shelve it, but in reality I think that full equality should be insisted upon.

iKNOW Politics: Referring back to what you mentioned on alliances and networks, what has been their role in your own political career?

Carmen Beramendi: I think they have been key. Men hold the power because they know how to create bridges and alliances despite their many differences. A good part of the things that we’ve been talking about in this interview will depend on whether we create strategies for alliance among women. Marcela Lagarde has greatly developed this through the concept of sorority among women. We have a lot to learn in this area. When a woman’s name surfaces, men as well as women instantly work to belittle that name. However, the names of twenty men surface and you don’t see anyone discredit them so easily. It seems to me that we women have a lot to learn in this respect.

When I was in the union, I started out as the only woman out of twenty leaders. Eight years later, there were ten women and ten men. There was a concrete policy that I promoted. I was the union president and there was a gender commission that I pushed through. However, three of four years after I left, women’s representation went back to being minimal. I ended up directing the National Women’s Institute (INMUJERES) not only due to the president’s decision, but also based on the unanimous opinion of women from all parties in the Broad Front coalition. My administration began with a very important presence and support from women of all Broad Front parties, which provided me with a lot of force to act.

I think that we women have great difficult in clearly stating conflicts. Sometimes I don’t do very well because of this, because I am very head-on when I state differences. In the long run, this creates greater legitimacy and I also feel that it gives me inner peace. I am convinced that there are many women in Uruguay who should be occupying the first places in lists. However, when this issue is proposed, we often fail to establish solidarity, leading many to withdraw. If a man lacks solidarity and seeks to fight for the spot, he doesn’t care if someone else thinks this is wrong. We women have been socially constructed to depend on the opinion they have of us – it is very important to us. And in politics this works against us. I don’t feel this anymore, perhaps since I am more of a veteran. When I was a deputy, I had a child under two years old, and it was a big deal to have been a deputy with a small child. For those of us women who enter politics, the cost is very high. Very few men take on equal roles in daily life and living with women who have high aspirations is difficult for them.

iKNOW Politics: To finish up, what suggestions would you give women, not only in Uruguay but in the entire region, who want to participate in politics but encounter enormous difficult in doing so?

Carmen Beramendi: We have to make a firm decision to strengthen ourselves as a group. I think that it is key for us to have networks if we really want to advance in decision-making areas and to build alliances among us. In this way, when we hear women arguing in public office, we will be able to support and encourage them. It’s about changing the way politics is exercised. I don’t like the idea of getting ourselves into politics only for it to continue to be extremely vertical, authoritarian and patriarchal. The challenge is to transform politics and humanise it more.

iKNOW Politics: You have an extensive and very valuable political career.  Could you tell us something about it, particularly what this career has entailed as a woman?

María Antonieta Saa: I have been in politics since the ‘70s and participated in social struggles since high school.  A good part of my experience is linked to Pinochet’s dictatorship [1973-1990] and the resistance movement.  During those years, the dictatorship’s repression over political areas, though perhaps paradoxical, forced us to empower ourselves as women.  It was a very special experience; it allowed us to create a strong woman political subject in the absence of political parties.  This allowed us to raise a platform of women that would later be included in democratic government programmes.  This is the origin of the National Women’s Service (SERNAM), created by law.  When democracy was restored, I was named first mayor of Conchalí (1990) by President Patricio Alywin (we hadn’t yet had direct elections for municipal representatives), and I was later elected as a member of Parliament.

What has this entailed as a woman?  Advantages and disadvantages, I would say.  For society, we have a positive image.  People elect us and trust in us, based on our work and honesty.  The problems come from the relations within political parties, the assessments that governments can make and the way the media treat us.  The press has a different way of treating women, it’s less tolerant with us than with men politicians, one can see the difference there.

iKNOW Politics: You mentioned the role of women during the dictatorship.  Now I’d like to ask you about the role of women and their organisations in the process that followed — the transition period and later democracy.  What was the process that led up to the election of Michelle Bachelet [2006-2010] as the first woman president like?

María Antonieta Saa: Just as I mentioned before, under the dictatorship we women transformed ourselves into a social and political subject that had a notable role in the struggle for democracy.  Our demands were received as specific demands and we managed to establish an agenda.  We had great presence among the opposition with the slogan: “democracy in the country and at home.”  With democratic governments, the agenda became a programme.  Policies regarding women’s rights, discrimination, equality, etc. were put into motion.

In the field of political representation, we had greater limitations.  Despite what we proposed to the first democratic government, there was no woman in the cabinet.  I was the first woman to be named mayor and there was a vice minister of housing.  Afterward, the National Women’s Service (SERNAM) was created as a ministry headed by a woman.

What happened is that the women’s movement, very present during the dictatorship, lost ground when political parties resurfaced.  Then some of us decided to move on to more political structures, understanding that if we weren’t in parties we couldn’t get our agenda across.  And this generated tensions and falling out with women’s movements.

How did Michelle Bachelet’s success come to pass?  Those of us who enter the world of political parties fight for greater presence and to extend women’s representation in office.  When we proposed to President Lagos [2002-2006] that there should be women ministers, he committed himself to having five women ministers.  He kept his word and of those five ministers, two received ample citizen support: Michelle Bachelet, Minister of Health [2000-2002] and later of National Defence [2002-2004] and Soledad Alvear, who was in the first democratic government as minister of SERNAM [1991-1994] and later of Justice [1994-1999] and who would be Foreign Minister [2000-2004].  during Lagos’ government.  Both were presidential pre-candidates, but the Concertación party elected Michelle Bachelet as its candidate.  This was not an agreement between the Concertación coalition parties, but rather a citizen election expressed through surveys and polls.  If Michelle hadn’t had such publicity as minister and the citizen support that her administration generated, she would not have been president; the parties would not have chosen her.
   
iKNOW Politics: Many analysts affirm that local governments should be privileged areas for women’s participation in politics, which contradicts the reality (there are hardly 10 percent of women mayors in the region versus 21 percent women members of Parliament).  Since you have had experiences with both these areas, what differences do you find among them?  What lessons have you taken from your participation as mayor?

I think the first achievement is Michelle’s election as president.  The fact that she has been president has changed the vision of women, adolescents and children.  Now little girls know that they can be presidents, deputies, mayors, etc.  However, we couldn’t pass a quota law.  The president presented one, we women had another, but we didn’t succeed.  And the difficulties originated from the Concertación party, not only the right wing.

In fact, she had a lot of difficulty during the first two years of her administration.  Even leaders from the Concertación party questioned her leadership, but now she’s leaving the government with an approval rating over 80 percent.  Yet this support and recognition does not yield greater political presence for women due to the reigning political culture and numerous obstacles within parties.

iKNOW  Politics: You have mentioned that the obstacles are more structural.  We know that legal frameworks help but the decisive transformation is societal mentality.  What can you tell us about this?

María Antonieta Saa: Chilean society is much more progressive and open toward women than political parties.  The big hurdle in my country is political parties.  There are studies that confirm that women parliamentary candidates are more eligible than men.  As I indicated before, Michelle Bachelet didn’t become president with the help of parties, but because the citizens elected her.  The people don’t have prejudices, the people elect us.  It doesn’t even occur to parties that they might be better off in elections if they had more women candidates, not even as something pragmatic.

iKNOW  Politics:  What would be necessary for them to change?

María Antonieta Saa: The fundamental thing is to keep fighting.  Unfortunately, many women’s organisations in civil society are not interested in participating in the fight to increase women’s inclusion in political parties.  They feel it is not within their objectives, or even contrary.  The issue is complicated.  However, change will arrive.  Political parties cannot be so out of touch with what the people want, and society wants us as leaders, as deputies, as mayors.  As of now, parties hold the key to this, but they will come to realise the importance of change, even if it costs them.  It is important to work with leaders, as we did with former president Lagos.

iKNOW  Politics: Very interesting.  Passing onto another issue, what has your experience been working with networks and international alliances?  What do you think about these spaces?

María Antonieta Saa: I would say that international networks are very important, particularly to exchange experiences.  In general, alliances are key.  In Chile it has been very hard for us to establish “complicity” between the women in Parliament in order to push forward a gender agenda.  It was very difficult in the beginning, we were coming out of the dictatorship and the differences between the right wing and us women ran very deep.  Little by little things have changed, women from the right have also backed some aspects of the gender agenda, overall those that relate to family issues: food pensions, children’s rights, etc.  But not other issues, such as the divorce law, which we have been debating for ten years now.  In reference to the quota law, there are beginning to be signs of changes, there are women from the right who support them.  Obviously on the issue of sexual and reproductive rights there is an abyss between us and them.  We have not managed to form a women’s caucus as has been done in other countries.  Here, the right is very conservative; some more progressive women are starting to appear in right-wing parties, but it will cost them a lot to win ground in their parties.

iKNOW  Politics: What suggestions would you give to young women who want to enter politics, but view it as something difficult to achieve?

María Antonieta Saa: Well, with the description that I gave of the parties, young women in Chile don’t have much desire to participate.

iKNOW  Politics: How could political leadership in Chile be renewed?

María Antonieta Saa: That is complex.  It does not depend exclusively on youths’ willingness.  We women are making an effort to clear the way for them, but they have to have an enormous amount of resistance and enormous willingness in order to overcome all the obstacles they’ll find in political parties.

In a women’s organisation, we have worked toward making proposals of women candidates for fundamental political offices.  There was a very interesting project in which very solid resumes were presented in order to refute the typecast that there were no women trained for public administration.  It said to them: “Look, here you have ten women who could exercise this office,” whether it was for some public service position or a vice ministry or even a ministry.  And in this way, by accessing some government office, women earn greater presence and public recognition, which could help them compete later as candidates.  The president [Bachelet] did something noteworthy with the equality in her cabinet, including women ministers who have done great work and who have been made visible to the whole country.  Michelle had to fight tremendously with her own party in order to form an equal government.  Despite what the parties told her, she found capable women that tomorrow will be elected as members of Parliament.  This is a tough road; being a leader in parties is very difficult, it’s a tremendous thing.  Chile is a tremendously machista country, overall in political parties, even though we appear to be a very modern country.

iKNOW Politics: What challenges have you faced as a woman in this leadership position as Senator? How did your background prepare you to meet these challenges?

Mary King: The challenges I faced were mainly those of a Parliament operating under the Westminster system where first-past-the-post elections give all power to the winning team. The party in power will have its way although we are given the opportunity to have our say. The Trinidad and Tobago Senate is made up of the following members: 15 appointed by the party in Government, 6 appointed by the Opposition Leader and 9 appointed by the President. The latter 9 are known as the Independent Senators, (of which I was one) having no party allegiance and expected to work in the interests of the country, always striving to get the ‘Best Act’ possible in the national interest. The Constitution spells out for the President how he is to choose these 9 independent senators - from outstanding persons in the country having certain qualifications, economics, law etc. I am an economist with a focus on development economics.

My background in economic research of the energy sector, finance and gender issues would have played a major part in preparing me for the role of an independent senator. Our country is one based on oil and gas and it has not learned the lessons of boom-bust scenarios which go with this type of economy, the ‘plantation’ system. When oil price is good the Government distributes it among the various sectors, trade and distribution, the social sector and construction. When times are not so good then we tighten our belts and borrow to meet the Government’s budget. Some of us economists have over the years researched this curse known as the ‘Dutch Disease’, developed best methods of diversification and laid these on the table for absorption by Governments over the years – so far to no avail.

I also was responsible for the formation of the National Women’s Caucus in the early ‘90s which set out to develop women for leadership roles in the society and the Parliament. It struggled with membership for some years and died perhaps because women were not then ready for leadership roles. Today it might be more successful.

My economics led me to courses in financial management and financial planning thus I was probably more than ready for my role in the Senate. I am a firm believer of hard work and most of that is geared towards national development, economic, social and political.

iKNOW Politics: In your opinion, what should women candidates be aware of while running for a public office? What specifically would you recommend to women running with limited resources and in male-dominated societies?

Mary King: Women should be aware that money plays a big role in party elections. At this time in Trinidad and Tobago the Prime Minister has just dissolved the Parliament prior to an election which by the way is not due for another 30 months or so. However, it has been reported in the press that his party will spend TT$ 150 Million on this election- that is about US$ 25 million (and we have only 1.2 million people). The other parties report that they have no money and are looking for about TT$ 12 million or about US$ 2 Million. With such vast differences in financial assets it is more likely that the party with the most money will most likely sway a greater number of people to vote for them. Also, historically financiers prefer to finance male candidates thus women are at a disadvantage in their campaign capability and usually depend on the party for funding. Of course this opens up the whole question of election campaign funding regulations and legislation, of which we have nothing in place. My own work has also included being Chairman of the local Chapter of Transparency International which has done a lot of work on the financing of political parties. I am also Secretary to the international body of GOPAC – the Global Organisation of Parliamentarians Against Corruption and our work there includes Parliamentary Oversight, Anti-Money Laundering and Political Party Funding issues.

iKNOW Politics: Can you tell our readers about a particular policy change you have contributed to since you were elected that benefits women?

Mary King: For many years many of us have written about, lobbied for and generally were very vocal on the need for a Children’s Authority as we have a serious problem with abuse of children. There are insufficient social workers, community police or even pre-school facilities in Trinidad and Tobago. I particularly have been lobbying for support for financially challenged single parent families. Our Government insists on having many make-work programmes all of which take the single parents out of the home. In my view a system that would engender batter nurturing is to keep the single parent at home by way of paying a dole or a family allowance like in the UK. In that way small infants are better taken care of, and live with the love and protection needed to allow for their development especially during the first four formative years when they are developing that sense of being loved and giving them the confidence of being a part of a family. So far we have succeeded in getting the legislation padded to establish the Children’s Authority and the establishment of a family court. I trust that the next Government will give priority to rebuilding family life and instilling the importance of having more responsible parents with stay-at-home mums especially in financially challenged homes.

iKNOW Politics: Are there lessons learned you would like to share with other women leaders?

Mary King: I cannot say that lessons have been learned as I am usually stubborn on points which I consider important. I would only suggest that when you have done your work, researched an issue and your view or proposal is not in keeping with what others may be thinking even in the case of a vote on a particular Bill, go forward with your own viewpoint, your decision based on your research. Do not allow the view of the majority to change yours as if you do your position will not be aired or debated and you will never know if you could have convinced the others to come around to your viewpoint. If you do otherwise you will have lingering doubts forever.

iKNOW Politics: Has your leadership style changed over the years?

Mary King: I do not think my leadership style has changed over the years. I may be swayed to change my opinions at times but it would only be based on a logical argument or discussion and based on a viewpoint that I had not examined before.

iKNOW Politics: Do you think you brought a new perspective as a woman?

Mary King: I may have brought a new perspective as a woman.  My own experiences which took me from being a registered nurse in Britain, a midwife, a pediatric sister, an operating theatre sister to doing a degree in economics and mathematics in Trinidad and Tobago, becoming a registered financial planner, Chairman and Director of several Boards both in the private and public sectors, Chairman of Joint Select Committees of Parliament, all of these experiences would have given me a particular perspective that few women would have had in life. I am sure all of these experiences have shaped who I am, how I think and how I make decisions. As a matter of fact it has been said quite frequently that as a woman I am not supposed to think the way I do.  So, yes I would say, I have brought a new perspective as a woman.   

iKNOW Politics: How has support from other women helped you in your work?

Mary King: Other women in my life, my mother, my sisters and close friends would have encouraged me to continue on my path. As a matter of fact it stands out very clearly in my mind when I was about 15 years old; my mother informed me that I could be anything that I wanted to be. I took her advice soundly.

iKNOW Politics: Do you think that being a part of a global network, such as iKNOW Politics, can help women at all levels of politics and their supporters to succeed in their careers and to mobilize around issues of common concern?

Mary King: Being part of iKNOW Politics must be of assistance to women at all levels of politics. Unfortunately it has only recently been born but nothing comes before its time. In today’s world most politicians and leaders have access to the Internet and if we all do our part in our own country more and more women will learn about it. I must congratulate GOPAC and its leaders for bringing this initiative to its members and trust that the male members of GOPAC will also introduce their women MPs to it in their respective countries. In that way circles of enlightenment will be born and developed bringing about stronger parliamentarians and a wider vision of the possibilities for women throughout the world.

iKNOW Politics: If you were to make one recommendation, what piece of advice would you share with iKNOW members, particularly women candidates, as they progress in their political careers?

Mary King: Investigate parliamentary models throughout the world. Examine them against your own model. Ask the question “Does your model give you and your country folk the best possible democratic system for people participation, open and free discussion, transparency and accountability, oversight of the Executive and enforcement of the laws you help bring about”? If your system is not working in the best interest of bringing about a strong democracy do not be afraid to work to achieve this goal. In this way you will ensure you have done your best to ensure your government is not working in its own best interest but is working in the country’s interest. We must work for open government, transparency and accountability, equity in distribution, value for money and efficient law enforcement. The people elect the government and the members of parliament. The parliament approves the budget, brings about new laws or amendments to existing laws, and, its third important role is oversight of that government on behalf of the people who elected them to office. The role of parliament to its people is an onerous one and therefore it is imperative that only persons of integrity with a passion for improving the lot of their people should be considered for such high office.